in the book of Revelation. And if you remember, where does that vision start? That's the second major vision. Anybody? Chapter 4. I can always count on the front row. Good. Chapter 4, with John being taken up into heaven, the heavenly throne room, and shown a vision there of the heavenly worship. And then we've noticed that in a very interesting way, everything that happens from then on through the end of chapter 16, and away flows out of that vision. Because John is in the heavenly throne room in the very presence of God, and we have the worship that's going on there with the 24 elders and the four living creatures and angels that surround the throne. We've seen the scroll given to the hand of the Lamb, who is slain. We've seen the Lamb break the seven seals that were on that scroll. Then we saw immediately, starting after that, we saw, well, actually there was an interlude, remember, between the 6th and the 7th seal. Then we saw seven angels with seven trumpets, and we saw them blow their trumpets, and there were a lot of interesting things happen that happened there. And we finally came to the end of chapter 11 last time, and we noticed that once again, and this happened with the 7th of the trumpets, once again we were given what appears to be some kind of vision of the last day. At the end of chapter 11, we have a judgment scene, and it appears as though the wicked and the righteous are all there for this judgment, and the temple of God is opened in heaven. Now in chapter 12, what's happening? Well, we know that there's coming up, there's coming up another series of sevens, isn't there? We've had seals, trumpets, and what's next? Seven vials or bowls, right? But before those seven vials or bowls are mentioned, we have another, you might call an interlude section, where something is going on. That would be in chapters 12 through 14, chapters 12 through 14. Now, a couple of points we make as we begin that interlude section. I want to say again, notice that we have right at the end of chapter 11, we've come to the end of human history with a scene of the last judgment. What does that tell you about what to expect in chapter 12? For that lead you to expect anything? Very good. You must have gone to Stanford. Reconpitulation. And John, can you refresh for our memories or maybe those who haven't been here, what we mean by that word? Reconpitulation? Well, the idea is that the book of Revelation reconpitulates the same story in a different way, four or five times in a week. Okay, yeah, several times at least. There's even some disagreement, maybe it's six times, maybe it's five times. We come to a vision of the end of history, but then it starts over. So in other words, you could either expect everything to go chronologically, sequentially in Revelation. That's the way one major approach looks at Revelation. Or you can recognize that what is happening is that John, well in the Revelation we are brought to the end of history several times. And then we start over. That's sort of a revolving, a recapitulation of things. Okay, that's what we mean by that. And so chapter 12 is either going to be what happens in eternity after the judgment, or it's going to start back over with the beginning of the church age. And as we ended last week, we took a quick preview of chapter 12, and I think already got an idea of which of those it's going to be. Let's look at the first few, first few verses of chapter 12. And a great portant or sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth in anguish for delivery. And another portant appeared in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems upon his heads, his tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, but he might devour her child when she brought it forth. She brought forth a male child, one who was to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God into his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which to be nourished for 1,260 days. I asked last week, and I'm going to ask again, what immediately comes into your mind when you read those first six verses? What do you think this symbolism is depicting? And now, just to let you know again, this is not a trick question, say what immediately comes to mind because I think this is some of the most transparent symbolism in the book. Jim? To Jesus Christ, and what particular aspect of his life or anything? Okay, actually, everybody tracking with Jim there, to see a woman with child and her child is going to rule the nations with a rod of iron, and a dragon is there waiting to devour that child, but the child is caught up to heaven. Is there any other picture of anything in scripture that would come to mind or in expectation? I don't know. There are scriptural associations for the background of this. I think we even mentioned last week. John or John, do you want to talk about that? Okay, so the dragon and the stars sort of reminds you of maybe some Old Testament texts like Isaiah 14, speak about a fall of a great leader, maybe Satan. It kind of sounds like the flight to Egypt of Joseph and Mary flight into the wilderness. You could even talk about the wilderness wandering so Israel. Okay, there are certain Old Testament backgrounds then and probably one of the most prominent would have to be another scene where we have an ancient serpent and a woman. Who is to bear a child and that child is to be a Savior figure? David? Genesis 3, 15. Okay, all right, way back to the garden scene. So all these things I think are behind this vision. Why does the vision come in this form? I think all these things are in the background. But certainly when we think of how this could be fulfilled, it would be the natural response to say. Well, it's talking about Jesus' birth and then his subsequent ascension, his resurrection and ascension. It's put in very compact statement. It's not elaborated and it's in figurative language, obviously. But that seems to be what it's depicting. Well, we noted then last week as well how pre-millennial interpreters in particular don't seem to take that view of this symbolism. Or if they do take that view of the symbolism, they tend to make a big break, put a big break between verses 5 and 6. Another is to separate the birth and ascension of Christ from what happens in chapter 6. One says there's obviously a great time gap between verses 5 and 6. Remember, 5 records the taking up of the sun to the throne of God. And then verse 6, the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which to be nourished for 1,260 days. And why? I have my suspicions as to why that's important for them to say and simply remember what we pointed out last week in closing. Okay, good. Then I can present it as if it were new, brand new. I think the thing is here, the key why people disagree over this is that if we can locate this symbol as having to do with Christ's first coming and his ascension to the throne of God. Then that gives us a starting point for the 3.5 year figure. Remember, we've already had several instances of this figure 3.5 years. We've had it in different forms, right? It was expressed in chapter 11, it's 42 months. That's 3.5 year period. 1,260 days. That's also a 3.5 year period. You have to trust me on this guy. I haven't written down. And there's another expression, time, times, and half a time, a little bit more ambiguous. But if you take a time to mean a year, then it'll be a year, two years, and a half year, three and a half years. Now why is this important? Well, because there's a lot of controversy about what the 3.5 year period represents. And if you remember that we have drawn up at least three main approaches to this. But we want to try to keep in our minds as we go through various interpretations. The one which we sort of associate with pre-millennialism would say that there are two, three and a half year periods. Revelation, adding up to, just want to see if you're awake. Three and a half, three and a half, seven. And this is the last, what's that beginning momentum? This is the last, well maybe I shouldn't put that. There is the rapture here at the beginning of this period, and then a great tribulation of seven years, and then Christ comes back again with His saints, with His raptured saints at the end of that. This would happen at the end of history, and it's literal, right? It's the last seven years of history. That's one major approach that many of us, I know, are familiar with. There's another approach, we've associated with a preterist approach, preterist meaning once again. It's already happened. Thank you. It's already happened. Some people can come in late and still be right on the ball. Right on the ball. I admire this. This is good. That's all right. Hey, I was late this morning too. They would tend to see it as a literal period too, but when did it eventually? 70 AD, right? Put it in the first century, so you've got like the spring of 67 to the fall of 70 when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. So you try to look at everything in terms of the first century, and particularly the war between Rome and the Jews. That's another major approach. Well, there's another approach that I've been advocating. Well, that sees the three and a half year period in contrast to these as a symbolic period, a symbolic period, not literal, and now why is this passage important? If we're right on this, it would put the start of the three and a half year period when right at the time of the ascension of Christ, right? Associated with the events of the first coming and the ascension of Christ in heaven. Now, what you see, you start to see what significance that would have. That means that, well, it favors this interpretation because if you're going to try to take it literally, I don't know what events you associate with what happened three and a half years literally after Christ rose from the dead. Not much. Nothing that could sustain all the comparisons and everything that's said about the three and a half year period in Revelation. No, that would tip us off, I think, that we're talking about a symbolic period of time, a symbolic period of time, and it would seem to end culminate with the second coming. Now, as I said, I think that's very important because it does give us a pretty solid approach, I think, to the three and a half years, in which interpretation we ought to take. Now, the question would naturally come up, why three and a half years? What's the basis for the symbol? Why not seven years or why not ten years or why not a thousand years? Why three and a half? Are there any associations, Old Testament associations, with a number three and a half that come to mind? Oh, by the way, did we ever get started over there? Just thought of this. We did. Thanks Mark. Appreciate that. This has happened before. Okay, yes, three and a half year periods in the Old Testament, anything come to mind? Good, good. Daniel seven is one place where this three and a half year period is mentioned. Anything else come to mind? We'll look at that in a moment. Well, there was a seven year period, right? Seven. That's good. That's thinking in sevens. Is there a three and a half, another three and a half? How about during the Ministry of Elijah? John? Right. It didn't rain for three and a half years. Isaiah, Elijah prayed and the heavens were shut. There was a great drought in the land. Okay, now one reason why that imagery should probably be connected here is you go back to chapter 11 and remember we had chapter 11, the two witnesses. And we talked about the different ways of looking at that. I suggest that the two witnesses should be seen as a symbol for the church. And those two witnesses are portrayed in terms, remember symbolic terms, but terms reminiscent of Elijah and Moses. And if you look at chapter 11, verse six, it says they have power to shut the sky that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying. Well, that sounds a lot like Elijah, doesn't it? That just sounds like it's picking up on the Elijah image. And how long in Elijah's ministry was the days of his prophesying when he shut the heavens? Well, three and a half years. And that's the three and a half year period. So I think there is definitely an illusion to that in the three and a half year period in Revelation. After you recall the character of that time in Israel's history, it was a time when the church was being persecuted. Who was who was on the throne, persecuting the true Israelites? Jezebel and Ahab, Ahab and Jezebel. Remember the mystery of Elijah and the prophets of Bale and Mount Carmel incident and so forth. It was Jezebel and Ahab. And during that time, the church was being persecuted. Yet, when Elijah had the thought that he was perhaps the only one, what did God tell him? There are seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Bale. In other words, Elijah, you're not alone. I am protecting the church, even though it's being persecuted. So you have a time of persecution and yet protection. And I think that is part of the picture too that were meant to recall in Revelation. This is a time, this whole period is a time when the church is being attacked by a great enemy, but the church is also being preserved. And in Revelation 126, we have that in the picture of the woman fleeing to the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God for 1,260 days. So I think that character fits the three and a half year period. Everybody's still sort of with me on that? So according to this interpretation anyway, this could characterize as one way, one way of characterizing the whole period from Christ's first coming to His second coming. Now, John mentioned also a reference in Daniel's prophecy. And if you want to turn there, you don't have to, but there are a couple of references in Daniel to this period. In Daniel chapter 7, Daniel has one of his very well-known visions. This is the vision of the four beasts, remember the four beasts. He sees four beasts, the first like a lion having eagle's wings. He then sees another beast, the second one like a bear in verse 5 after this, a third one like a leopard, and then another one that was terrible dreadful exceedingly strong. And it had ten horns and another little horn that spoke great things. And then if you turn later in the chapter when Daniel receives the interpretation of this vision, we get to about verse 25, chapter 7. And he, that is this little horn figure. Now this gets a bit complicated, but stick with it here, if you can. He shall speak words against the most high and shall wear out the saints for the most high. And shall think to change the times and the law. And they shall be given into His hand for a time, two times, and half a time. That's the three and a half year period there. So it's a time that is characterized by the presence and the malevolent influence of this little horn figure. Now who is the little horn? Well most interpreters would connect the little horn with the antichrist in some manifestation or another. Either at the very end of history or maybe throughout all of Christian history. So the point to that is only to show again another Old Testament source for this. And the Old Testament is associated in Daniel with the time of the little horn who is an antichrist figure of some sort. Well that fits in with Revelation 2 as well. Because in Revelation chapter 11, this is also the time of the beast, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit, chapter 12 as well in a different image. Any comments on that so far? My only point there is again to show that how this period is conceived of in the Old Testament and how that seems to fit with the picture given in Revelation. So how did any kind of notorious date at all? I really don't think that we can recognize this in church through this season between the ascension and the ascension. And I think that's to an extent right. But there are other images that go along with it. I would say that present a more victorious and triumphant picture of the church. Even with the two witnesses, although they're persecuted and they're eventually killed by the beast during their ministry, they're able to strike the earth with plagues and no one is able to harm them. So you have even in that very image almost contrasting elements. We have contrasting elements of them being positive and victorious and yet also under persecution. I think that's a very good point, but I think that it does get to the paradox that we're going to see also in chapter 12 as well in a moment. But that's going to keep that thought in mind as we go through. Well, they tend to look at it in the first century, the years 67 through 70, when the war with Rome was intense, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. And that would be the middle view here. Does anybody have any? Oh, are you wondering about the 70 weeks of Daniel? Anybody? I'm fishing. I'm fishing. Thanks, Larry. Well, I'm glad you asked, Larry. There is one other possible connection for the three and a half years in the Old Testament. And that goes back to the 70 weeks of Daniel. Now, I know some of you really don't care about the 70 weeks of Daniel, but others probably do because this is a very prominent theme, particularly in the pre-millennial interpretation. It's the last week that concerns. Yeah, okay, I'll accept that. The 70th week, not the 70 week. The 70th week. Very briefly, if this is possible, Daniel chapter nine, Daniel chapter nine, you're going to be so saturated, see with stuff from Daniel today. That's going to be good. Daniel chapter nine is the passage that talks about the 70 weeks. This is during a time when, remember, Israel is in captivity, the Babylonian captivity. And Daniel has been reading scripture. And he, it's impressed upon him that the captivity is going to last 70 years. And the time is approaching. And so he prays to God. It's great prayer of confession in the first part of chapter nine of Daniel. Confessing Israel's sin and how God is just in his judgment and yet pleading for mercy. Then he, what we read is that verse 20, the man Gabriel, the angel Gabriel comes to visit the Daniel and gives him a prophecy. And he says that there are 70, 70 weeks of years or 77s of years are decreed for your people. And he names a number of things that are going to happen in this 70, 70s. And he says verse 24, 70 weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city. To finish the transgression, to put an end to sin and to a tone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to see able both vision and profit and to anoint a most holy, almost holy one or a most holy place. Then, okay, 70 weeks are to determine that. And this all sounds like things that are done in the first coming of Jesus. Then if you go down a couple of verses to verse 27, he shall, well, in the intervening verses, it's pointed out that there will be a division of the 70 weeks. You have seven weeks of division and then 62 weeks, 62 plus seven equals 69. That leaves, how many weeks? One week, last one seven, one group of seven. And it's that last seven that's bothering Bob and that's probably this one we're most concerned about because in the midst of that week, something happens, verse 27. He, and we don't know at this point who that is without talking about it, he shall make a strong covenant with many, either four one week or in during the one week. And four half of the week, or in the middle of the week, to be translated, he or it shall cause sacrifice and offering disease. And upon the wing of abomination shall come one who makes desolate until the decree to end is poured out on the desolate. A lot going on there. But the point I want to make is there's a distinction in this prophecy between the first half of the 70th week and the second half in the midst of that 70th week. Sacrifice and offering are caused to cease. Now what would that have reference to? Destruction of the temple. Anything else? Or the crucifixion? Or the crucifixion? Which could it be? Thematically they both very much go together. It's like the crucifixion is what principally put an end to sacrifice. Sacrifice and offering for sin is thereby done away with its superfluous now. The sacrifice, the one sacrifice for all sins of God's people is made. And all the remaining ones are obsolete. Now it took a while in history for this to come to pass in any kind of physical way because sacrifice is continued to be offered in the temple. That's why the crucifixion and the destruction of the temple are really in a way the same thing. The destruction of the temple is just the working out in history of what had taken place on the cross. Doing away with the sacrificial system. That is what I would suggest happens in the middle of the 70th week. Now what happens to the remaining three and a half years of the 70th week if that's in the middle? Well some interpreters say it's that last half of the 70th week that is this period. And you can kind of see the logic of that. Remember it's in figurative terms but if Christ is crucified in the midst of that 70th week then the whole period after that which is undefined and Daniel can be a figure, you know, a symbol for the rest of Christian history. Any questions on that comments? I think that makes a lot of sense. Again you have to accept this as a symbolic period of time but we've seen already from the text of Revelation how the three and a half year period seems to start with the crucifixion ascension of Christ. And therefore I think that fits. I think a pretty convincing way to look at the 70 weeks. Okay if all that was new to you that's okay. Well we can go on I think and there's a lot more that's really important to talk about from chapter 12. Yes with the rest of the rest of the rest of the verse in Daniel 20 Daniel 927 which talks about the destruction poured out on the wing of abominations and that's by many interpreters related to the temple itself which became an abomination after a while after. Israel rejected savior. All right well we come then to chapter 12 verse 7. Let's look at Revelation 12 7. We read that war now arose in heaven. Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. Michael remember his name for an Old Testament name for one of the great angels archangels. He appears in the book of Daniel. It's very closely connected with Christ and his work as the leader of Israel. Michael and his angels fight with the dragon and the dragon and his angels fought but they were defeated. There was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down that ancient serpent was called the devil and Satan the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth and his angels were thrown down with him and I heard a loud voice in heaven saying now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God in the world of his Christ have come for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down. And that's the passage we read at the beginning of class. This war that breaks out in heaven seems to be intimately connected with what's just gone before with the the child of the woman being caught up to heaven and then the war in heaven and Satan and his angels are thrown down to the earth. I think this is a very crucial aspect of salvation as we know it in the New Testament. Think back to the time of Job. What was Satan doing in the first couple chapters of Job? He had access to the presence of God where he could accuse Job and other saints presumably. He could accuse them and bring charges against them and God said if you see my servant Job and so forth, there is this access that Satan has in his accusatory role against the saints. You see that also I think in Zechariah chapter three, Satan accusing the saints. Now what happens in Revelation chapter 12? Does Satan today have that same access to where he can bring accusations against God's elect? Does he have that same access according to chapter 12? No, what happens? What has happened? He's been kicked out of heaven and this has to be the result of Christ crucifixion and ascension into heaven. Paul says there is now therefore no condemnation in Christ Jesus. The accuser of our brethren has been thrown down. Of course he accuses us. Of course he accuses us in our conscience and so forth but his accusations can no longer stick. His accusations have no place in heaven anymore. His case in a real sense has been thrown out of court. I think that's the meaning of this battle in heaven and Satan loses at this point in history, this point associated with the ascension of the Son of God into heaven. Satan loses and he's thrown out. And therefore then you have this wonderful song of rejoicing. In verse 10 the loud voice saying now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God in the authority of his Christ have come. For the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down who accuses them day and night before our God. He has been thrown down. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony for they love not their lives even unto death. You remember in Revelation how the way of conquest is the way through the blood of the Lamb and we wash our garments in the blood of the Lamb and we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony because we also like him might even have to go to death. They love not their lives unto death. And remember we're talking right at the beginning of class how you know the world's eyes when Christians are killed for the sake of the gospel. It looks to all the world like Satan's winning and the church is losing. But Revelation tells us that nothing could be further from the truth. That saints loving not their lives even unto death. That's the conquest. That's the conquest of the dragon. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb the word of their testimony for they love not their lives even unto death. And that again I think gets us down to the depths of the paradox in Revelation and the whole the paradox of our age and as Bob was bringing up a while ago. Is the church victorious and triumphant or is the church under siege both? I think you have to say both in the New Testament. Listen how poignantly this is put in the words of verse 12. Now remember the setting, Satan has been thrown down and the saints triumph over him. Rejoice then O heaven and you that dwell therein. Salvation and the kingdom of God and the authority of his Christ have come so everything is peaches and cream for the church on earth. Wrong. Rejoice then O heaven and you that dwell therein. But woe to you O earthen sea for the devil has come down to you in great wrath because he knows that it's time is short. Well again I think that's a very powerful way to look at the paradox. Satan has been thrown out of heaven. He can no longer present his case and gain a real hearing before God. His Christ sacrifice means that your sins are paid for and that means peace with God and that means the kingdom and the authority of Christ. But woe to you O earthen sea because even in his defeat Satan is scrambling about roaring like a lion seeking whom he made of hour. He is of course on a leash on a tether. He can only do what he's allowed to do but you see how there is the fundamental victory of Christ and the church has been won. And even so there is tribulation for the church on earth. Any questions on that or comments? And if God just didn't buy his words he can throw Satan out of heaven. You know I want to get a little peridion here but you know if you have this battle with Michael and the forces of God you know if you have this but we don't say a game. Maybe we go with the call it historical event about that time that would be of that magnitude. I'm not saying it didn't happen anything but it just seems that this battle ended so great and it was quick. But I think it's fairly interesting. Yeah. Well that's an interesting question now what exactly I mean this is a vision what actually happens in heaven and how does it transpire on earth? That is an interesting question. Do I think it really happened? Yes in some way. Yeah it happened. Satan was cast no longer like he did before and I would say you know amen if we are I'd say we're in bad shape you know if that hasn't happened yet. Now if Satan is still allowed after the once and for all sacrifice of Christ is still allowed to have that same kind of access to the throne of God. Now we do have Jesus remember on the way of the cross saying now this is John 1231 now is the judgment of this world now is the ruler of this world cast out. Now I think that's the he's talking about the same thing and he's associating that with his going to the cross whatever it happened whatever happened whatever effects on earth that had. I don't know other than it means that we may have our sins forgiven once and for all remember on that day that Jesus was crucified. I mean there was clamor in the heavens in the sense there was the sun was darkened and there was an earthquake good good. There was clamor in the physical realm that was I think indicative of the world shattering events that were happening John. So for the cross and now what you can't do after the cross what specifically changed what can he still do in this age that we live today and last of all will he have any increased freedom before the very end. Yeah that's a good question that gets also to the interpretation of chapter 20 when you know you mentioned being loosed and so forth that's what we have you have to remember several several different visions of why I would argue are the same same thing same time period the second coming or the time in between the second coming. And it's depicted slightly differently maybe in different different sections of revelation chapter 20 just a preview a little bit has the devil being bound thrown into a pit. And even though it's different image it's not he's thrown down to earth it's thrown into a pit I would connect that with the same thing that's happening in chapter 12 it's a curtailing of Satan's power and his influence. And there is unable to deceive the nations while he's bound and then he's released after the thousand years and he does deceive the nations and he gathers them for battle against the church okay that's quick picture of what's going on there how does that relate well one thing we know is that Satan is not able to deceive the nations of the earth as he did before Christ came. You say well there's a lot of deception going on granted but on the other hand the gospel has gone out to the end of the earth and the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. So there is that victorious aspect and he's not as now the church instead of being confined essentially the one nation is composed of all nations. Every tribe tongue people and nation so that's one thing I think John and another is is simply the well this holds you additional aspect of salvation Satan as the accuser as the opponent of God's people as the accuser of God's people how has that been affected well I think in a sense you can say Satan always accuses. And he accuses our conscience and so forth but that accusation would always have had that always would have a plausibility until Christ came and now that Christ has come those accusations have no place before God. Even in the Old Testament of course Christ's sacrifice was good for Old Testament saints as well but it was still looked forward to. But now that Christ has come those accusations are meaningless before the throne of God and that they've been demonstrated to be such by the crucifixion. Remembering Colossians 2 Paul says that Christ disarmed the principalities and the powers triumphant over them in the cross. And Hebrews 2 says that Christ came to destroy the works of a devil. You know there's so many indications in the New Testament in little bit different ways but indications of how Christ defeated Satan on the cross and all the powers of darkness. And I think that Judicial aspect is a very very key thing in that defeat.
Well I think he has the freedom to tempt us. He has the freedom to his power over us I think has to do with his power to tempt us to sin. Possibly also in terms of physical affliction. He's allowed to do that to be this down in discouragement and various kinds of spiritual problems but he's not able to snatch us out of Christ's hand. And he's not when a Christian dies in faith Christian wins and Satan loses. Any comments on that or does that he's a rebel even in the face of truth. And a poor sport the flood from his mouth and then the earth swells up that flood. A lot of interpreters see that the flood out of his mouth as you know his lies in the seat what comes out of Satan's mouth. His efforts to the seat to slander to beat God's people down with slanderous and evil lies. So I think that aspect is there too. Remember he is the liar and the father of lies Jesus says and that is you know that is a main stay I think of his arsenal. I think you can say that I think that the Satan always has been and always will be until he's destroyed on a tether on a leash. He can only do what he's allowed to do by God and that aspect hasn't changed. But I think if you look at the two pictures I think there's a definite contrast with Satan being allowed to roam the earth and come before God and converse with God. Make accusations against Job skin for skin you strike his flesh and he will turn against you whereas that kind of revelation 12 pictures that he no longer has that kind of access. He and his angels are cast out of heaven and rejoice. Oh heaven and you that dwell therein but woe to your earth and see. Oh well I don't know. And maybe he's just God constrains him by other means without him gaining permission. He has permission in the sense that he can only do things and God allows him to do. God will stop other things. I don't know. Good question John. What do you think is that Satan knows scripture and probably better than Jesus? Who knows is there in the seal? Who knows is there in the terminus? He's not going to win. And one thing that occurred to me is there is a sense of war that often times the greatest atrocities occur once the after debauchery. There's nothing to lose. I mean it's all lost anyway. Exactly. That's when your most desperate and proper most vicious. And in a sense it seems like that could describe the age of one that you know he considers something like a portion of one of the incredible atrocities of having millions and millions of children killed in our midst. I mean that's hard to really get a grip on that historically in a historical proportion. I mean it does seem like there's been an hour through there to what we've seen in the war. Right. The devil coming down in great wrath as the text says. I did see. Right. Satan has asked to sift you like wheat. Right. But I have prayed for you. Matthew. Matthew towards the end. Catherine. I think that's you'd have to say he's deceived. Yeah. Great deceiver is deceived. To be deceived into believing that he can make a difference. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Right. Right. Good. Because we haven't really talked even about the woman herself and exactly what she depicts. I think that we can probably go into that next week. But I think it either means well the rest of her offspring bring I think means the rest besides the man child. So it's all the children of the woman. And again you have this biblical imagery of the people of God as a woman but also as her children. And it's a sort of a complex image. But we can talk about that very quickly. That's why I think it is. Well we better close and thank everybody for their attention. Let's pray. We give you praise and honor again Lord Christ for the great victory. You have won for us over Satan and the powers of darkness. O Lord deliver us from fear of Satan and fear of death, fear of his temptations, and allow us O Lord to rise triumphant as you have promised that we will ultimately be. We commit to you again this day and ask you to bless us in it for your glory and Christ's name. Amen. Thank you. Thank you. The combination of dissolution and Daniel. How would you interpret it for us at the crucifixion? The rejection of the joints for them? I think it becomes associated with the temple and in Luke's account of the Olivet discourse in Luke 21. In the place where the other gospel say the abomination of desolation, Luke's version says when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that seems weird at first but it seems to be interpreting for us that it means when Rome is about to break in and desecrate the temple and perhaps even that the temple is already desecrated by the Jews. When the abomination of desolation, I don't understand that this chapter 24 fits into this class of Jews because it says when the abomination of desolation is going to process happening then all these terrible things happen and immediately after the distress of those days, it sounds like Jesus is returning. I don't understand how it's going to be this chapter. Well, it's not an easy thing. I think we have two poles, two foesci here talked about both the destruction of Jerusalem and then when Christ comes back at the last day and they're intertwined very much. But I think that the key word there is not immediately but after the distress of those days, then this happens and it's not, why do they have immediate? Well, immediately can mean, you know, like suddenly... It hasn't really happened. Well, it can be like suddenly after, after the complete... And also, I mean these days, these days can be taken as the whole period when Jerusalem is destroyed, that is like the initiating events for a long period. I mean, I think you can look at it when those days are done immediately after those days are done. Those days not just the destruction of Jerusalem, but that initiates the times of the Gentiles. In Luke's version, he talks about Jerusalem will be trought down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So I mean, I think that sets the whole times of the Gentiles idea from that point in history to back. So I think we have to see the distress of those days as accomplishing the whole period. That's where people can get, I mean this is a really misleading death. Well, it's... I'm going to find out in the end that wouldn't have sleep. Yeah. It's going to be that chapter. It's going to be immediately after... Yeah, and I think it takes... So then... Is Jerusalem going to then happen at the end of the long time? So, can we expect this to happen? The Sun will be darkened and then I'm not going to start... Is that just the return of Christ speaking up the return of Christ? Yeah, yeah. And I think that might actually happen literally, but I don't... That's the sort of thing that is... An Old Testament language used figuratively for when a great disaster, a great change of powers takes place. So I don't know. I could be kind of open on that. Some people say it's going to be literal, and some people say it's figurative. Then, you know, what he goes on to say... The coming of the Son of Man, the clouds. I think that's, you know, literally going to happen. And he sends a loud trumpet call and his elect... And will it be this generation, this whole generation from Christ? Well, see, there, again, it becomes very complicated, but... Or it looks complicated. I think we have to see that Jesus is, in a sense, going from one focus to the other, back and forth. Well, it is confusing, but... Well, I think any other way you take it, you know, if you try to... If you take it as all referring to what happened in 70 AD, then I think you have a lot of problems. Because then you don't have, in the passage, a second coming of Christ. Or it will happen in 70 AD, which I think conflicts with the whole rest of the New Testament. And if you say that it all refers to his second coming, I think you have trouble with these passages up here that really do talk about Jerusalem. You know, when you're on the house top... Right. Right, right. So that's the dilemma we're in. Then I think it becomes... Well, I had to use the word puzzle, but to try to figure out when Christ is alluding to the destruction of Jerusalem into the second coming, because they're related in some important ways, but they're not the same thing. In the disciples' mind, they may have been completely related. They may have thought when Jerusalem is destroyed, that's the end of the world. But Jesus is telling them that that's not the case. But I think it takes a very careful reading, that he goes back and forth from one to the other. Are they related because there is going to be a terrible time? Yeah, I think so. I do. But I don't know how that will manifest itself. In Revelation, it's depicted in a figurative way, like the forces of Gog and Megog surrounding the camp of the saints. Well, I think that's figurative language. But how that actually works out in history, I don't know. Well, the names are used in Ezekiel's prophecy. They have to go back to Ezekiel. And they seem to be just names that stand for hordes of pagan people at the ends of the earth who foreigners should come to attack Israel. And the word Gog, I think, goes all the way back to Genesis 10, the table of nations, who is so-and-so, is a descendant of so-and-so, and there's a word Gog in there. And people disagree over exactly who that is. So I don't think it's a literal, like, to identify Russia with Gog, necessarily. But it's just the forces of unbelief gathered against the Church. Do you personally believe there's anything significant that has happened that would make you believe that we are approaching the return of Christ? Well? Well, the Gospel. Oh, I don't think so, but- Well, the Gospel. Well, look for significance for my death at least the first year. Yeah. Yeah. See, I don't really see that as a significant, ultimately significant. It's significant in that it may mean that there's more of a possibility for Jewish evangelism, but maybe right now, I mean Israel's so hostile to Christianity, it doesn't look like- it doesn't look like the return of Israel in the Old Testament. That's always- they come back in obedience, and they're certainly not doing that. What I think is significant is that the Gospel has gone out to- almost looks like it's gone out to every nation. There's still people that haven't heard, but Jesus said the Gospel, the Kingdom must be preached to all nations, and then the end will come. I mean, that's something that we see happening in front of our eyes. But exactly when- when that saturation point happens, again, I think we don't know. We don't know the day or the hour, and we- we're supposed to live in a ready state no matter when. So- Well, I read the text because he referred to- you might be a little bit pertinent. It said in chapter 6, not too long for that day of judgment. Because it'll be a day of judgment. So John says, why are you longing for it? So should we have that mentality then? If not, you're longing for it, and waiting, and trying to pick it out and all that? Well, in aim is probably what's going on too, is that Israel is in a state of disobedience, and he's saying, you better not long for that day, because when he comes, it's going to be bad news for Israel. Those are referred to- we wouldn't take it applied- I think false Christians would have to apply- you know, it would have to apply to a false church. But not to the believers. I don't think so. I think we can long for his coming. Yeah, I think the New Testament, that's the overriding. If we're in sin and hypocrisy in the sea, then we better be afraid of it. But otherwise we better- we should long for it. So do you personally think it's possible that things could get bad, and then it could be revival and purging? Funding in the church and all that, and then we could go on for thousands of years. I wouldn't rule that out? No, no. People have been certainly wrong before. The Bible looks like my father's. What did I mention? I really had the warmth and the fire and the hypocrisy. Oh, glad that it was good. Right to- I haven't seen a portion of scripture where, you know, train especially when you jump between 45 and the 2 or 70. And take that- keep that comments about the woman going to the womanist group. We're kind of behind where it talks about the child being taken up in the 3 or 7 question about the Satan being thrown out. It was just a good thing to know. You know, it was already happening on the other side. And to see the promises then that come down in a portion of the scripture. The warnings and the careful graciousness of God had torn us. You know, given the signal out. I'm going to appreciate it. Thanks Bob. It was emotional. Good, we like that. What did he do? Did they do this for me? We need to erase it. We need to erase it now. I don't think you can erase this. I can. I need to erase it. Okay. Why do I always do that? Why do I? Why do I always do that? I always do the redness. Oh, I don't know. You did that, Adam? Yeah.