Okay, as we begin this class, do any of you have any further questions from what we were discussing last time? Because I know there were there were quite a lot of questions there. That is the whether indeed Christianity has had any serious impact on Western culture Rob hmm. Well, I think they Now that's an interesting question Were there non-Christians who were in agreement with shape his view on the influence of Christianity on the Western on the United States in particular because certainly he was He was hammered by quite a few evangelicals. You're you're quite right there Yeah, I think one of the things that Oz was saying the other day and in terms of his work on the Williamsburg Charter They have many non-Christians working with them on that who were quite happy to recognize that the history of this country could not be understood without seeing the influence of Christianity upon it and the fact that That has now been adopted by several states for their whole educational curriculum in the public schools Means that there must be a recognition out there of the of the influence of Christianity But I think if you read any serious study on the development of the New England states for example It would be impossible for it to be historically Accurate historically without speaking about the influence of the Christian understanding I remember reading a little book on the New England colony by Marxist historian and
He just took it for granted that it was impossible to understand The history of the New England colonies without seeing That Christian Foundation now he didn't agree with it, but just as a historian he was I mean, he didn't agree with the Christian position But just as a historian he recognized that I I think what you've got to remember Is that we've gone through a period of say 20 or 30 years when as part of the reaction to Christianity People in every discipline have tried to either malign or to de-emphasize The influence of Christianity on the development of this nation or of West and Europe But I think if you read almost any history book from before 30 or 40 years ago You would find it just simply taken for granted that that was the reality Both by those who were Christians and by those who weren't It will be the same in the history of science It is very widely acknowledged that modern sciences we know it has Arisen within the context of a Christian understanding of reality now I think we we have this if you like sort of hiatus of a period of 30 years or so of denying that influence of Christianity And many of the younger evangelical historians who've attacked Shaefer have been trained during that period
Hopefully in the future there will be a return to a more balanced position in terms of acknowledging the past You see you as I said the other day you don't need to say everybody was a Christian you don't need to say every individual who Who had it say an influence on the on the shaping of America was individually a Christian What we're talking about is consensus and the historical moment in which they lived It's really it's really such a foolish thing to suggest it has no influence. It would be like looking at Saudi Arabia and saying Islam has had no influence upon it Nobody would say such a thing You know, it's very evident that That the world view of a people Shaped its institutions It's a very modern idea that religion and Reality have nothing to do with each other That's something which in the past until a very short time ago nobody would have recognized as As even a possible idea So it's not a strange thing To be saying it just appears strange at this moment in history where faith is put into a completely separate compartment But I think if you read Weber and tawny on the history of capitalism Both of them acknowledge very clearly there the influence of Christianity on The development of the whole economic system quite apart from anything else and Those are a foundational books Now I think the question is you know, how many people in if you like in the secular academic world Recognize the the importance of shape or or would be prepared to say had any influence positive or otherwise. I can't really answer that question I think you'll find that there it there it there are a growing number of studies Of his of his influence Both within the Christian community and outside it But again, you've got to remember the moment in which we live That our culture has moved so strongly in the direction of of separating Christianity or separating religion from From every other aspect of reality That that isn't a natural source of study at the present time But perhaps that will begin to change a little bit. I Think it will be interesting to see over the next 20 years Just how many how many studies there are that will be done both within the evangelical community and outside I Get regularly telephone calls and let us some people who are doing Who are doing doctoral studies and M A thesis on Schaeffer
Those are Christians mostly yes No, no, they're not in Christian institutions And many of them are I mean they're mostly in In just in ordinary universities where that where they're doing that work And for them to be able to do that there must be some recognition by their professors that this is worth studying
Any other questions here before we move on Yeah Yes That's that's a good question the question is Is it possible that Thinking about the influence of of Christianity on On the economic system of capitalism in the West Is it possible that Christianity was misused sometimes as an ideology From practical purposes Yes, it certainly is and of course that was that was Karl Marx's basic approach to say that Religion particularly Christianity in the West and Europe and the United States was what he called the opium of the people That it was ruthlessly used as an ideology by those in economic power to keep Ordinary working people working hard Holding before them the fear of judgment Holding before them an ordered view of the universe in which they had to keep their place on the bottom of the pile Just to prevent them from rebelling against against against the system and And That is if you like been a sort of piece of Marxist dogman From Marx right up till the present time for a period of 150 years now they of course there's an element of Truth in that in that there are always politicians and People in power who are prepared to use the convictions of people For their own purposes
Whether it's to be elected Whether it's to stay in power Or whatever We talked about this a little day other day how President Nixon for example was constantly Appealing to people's Christianity At the end of his speeches Now where exactly he stands. I don't know but I personally as a non-American had a real problem with that Hearing him do that because at the one hand he was known for For doing things which were clearly illegal and yet at the same time he was peeping appealing to people's a Christian commitment and There's a kind of double message you're getting there doing things illegal and dishonest and Or at least having other people do them. I suppose I have to be careful with that what I say here
Robert will wipe out what ought not to be here So of course Christianity can be misused as an ideology to maintain Order in a society or to maintain a certain economic situation There's a funny little prayer in England which expresses this God bless the squire and his relations and may he keep us in our stations where That little prayer is I mean is it was a humorous response by ordinary English people To the way the church was sometimes seen as the preserver of the status quo and Just keeping people where they were that that is always going to be a reality You can see in the Muslim world at the present time how religious further Religious conviction can be appealed to by those in power Even Saddam Hussein does that though. He's been busy building a secular state When it serves as purposes he appeals to Islam Now that that can be true in any context whether in a context where Christianity has been the consensus or Islam or whatever
But I think we have to examine the question a little more deeply
Notice that I said appealing to convictions of people you can only really appeal To a religious view even if you're doing it for pragmatic and ideological purposes if it really is the views of people You can distort it and misrepresent it in order to keep things as they are in order to let's say suppress any kind of change But only by appealing to the fact that people do have these convictions About who God is and there who they are before God and that his word is is is to be abate So even that argument recognizes That the consensus of opinion was a Christian one otherwise even the unscrupulous politician Wouldn't have been making that kind of appeal
But over against that view I would say this that Again as you look back at The history of Western Europe and the United States Christianity has been a major force for change While it can be used by those who want to keep things the way they are It has actually been a major force for change If we just use some examples some Britain In the 19th century It was Christian convictions That were the major force behind almost all the major social changes whether it was the abolition of slavery The changing of of labor conditions in the factories the improvement of prison conditions The beginning of what we might call modern nursing Or on many of these issues it was Christians who were in the forefront of change because of their Christian convictions It's a really false reading of history to see Christianity Always something being used by unscrupulous politicians to keep things the way they are of course you can find examples of that Or if you look back at The civil war in England in the 17th century I'm More at home speaking about the British situation than the American one but looking at the civil warning in the 17th century There's no way you can understand that without seeing The way cromwell and the parliamentarians were completely shaped by their understanding of scripture Which brought about radical changes in British society If you see that film on cromwell's life for example with Richard Harris Even that presents him warts and all that film recognizes very clearly That the whole of British the British future is completely indebted to cromwell for His putting restraints on the power of the monarchy And introducing a parliamentary form of government
And those people did that because of their Christian convictions You don't have to approve of everything cromwell did let's say with regard to the Irish for example Where I certainly wouldn't approve of what he did to recognize that in fact British history owes him an enormous debt And you don't have to be a question to recognize that I think Most most British historians or historians of Britain would recognize that That his work had an enormous impact On the development of Britain And its whole understanding of of the nature of law of the nature of power of restraints on those in power Those kinds of issues And remember that's at the very time When the Westminster Assembly was meeting producing the Westminster Confession I mean those people who were involved in that revolution Were people who were the most strongly committed To the reformed faith The point I made the other day about Jeremy Rifkin was that he as a non-Christian was acknowledging That the major social changes in the United States were because of Christianity But in fact it hasn't really been a force for conservatism In that kind of sense of just keeping the status quo
I think at the moment we're in a when a rather different position The Christian questions at the moment are seen as a force of conservatism Because of the stand Christians are taking on moral issues like abortion And the family and pornography And those are seen as conservative issues at the moment and of course in one sense they are because they're seeking to conserve The view of the family of human life Of sexuality Which has been taken for granted in this culture for several hundred years And And that is appears to be very conservative at the moment But if you look at it in other way it's a very radical position A kind of revolutionary position Because it's exactly the opposite of what The dominant culture is saying at the present time
But I think there is very little force to simply explaining The influence of Christianity historically On unscrupulous people in power I think that the light and Marx's whole approach Is the debacle economically you see in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union right now And comparing it with with a situation here Well, certainly there is a situation which is not filled Where where you can find many examples of injustice Where you can find many examples of poverty and suffering But to look at this society and say that here capitalism In relationship to Christianity has been a tool for keeping people down keeping people enslaved Keeping them in poverty Is clearly clearly nonsense It's clearly nonsense You know I think you can demonstrate But it's only where people are given some sense of economic significance Because they have some significance before God and the two are fundamentally related that our lives can that The choices we make matter they make a difference That we are accountable for what we do That we have the possibility of changing our situation That you that you are going to have both social changes and economic advancement You see Christianity is the very opposite of a conservative force in that sense Because Christianity comes to the individual and promises them liberation It promises them a new relationship with God It calls them to a new kind of obedience which is going to transform their life And why that why it may seem At a superficial glance to be conservative in the sense that it requires respect for authority Fundamentally it's a source for the most dramatic social change And you can predict that in any country where there is any kind of genuine Christian revival It's going to transform the whole society over time Because it changes the way people see each other It changes the relationship for example between Master in servant or employee and employee employee immediately As soon as somebody begins to see That it's not power that matters it's not money that matters it's not privilege that matters it's not What strata the society you're born into that matters it's who you are before God that matters That that is a profound instrument of social change right there Because it enables people to see themselves differently If you take India as an as an example But with its caste system I think we would have to say that if there were interesting and how you would respond to this poor But if there were a genuine Christian revival in that society and masses of people converted But over time the caste system would have to go It's so intimately related to Hinduism
It's so completely alien to a Christian understanding that in Christ there is no No caste we might say using that that context that it would be banned which use changes As it led to the abolition of slavery that's saying Britain or here eventually Because of what Yeah, it's a good question. Do I see the possibility of capitalism changing because of revival yeah Beak carefully note what I'm saying. I'm not saying the capitalism itself is Christian Or that the form in which capitalism is practiced at the present time or at any point in the past is is faithfully obedient to the gospel That's not the point that I'm making what I'm saying is there are some fundamental elements in Christian teaching In Christian doctrine which transform the way we see ourselves and the way we see society And which over time make people productive They really do People see you know us kept speaking about The Christian doctrine of calling which is fundamental to any understanding of the reformation that Calvin taught And Calvin most strongly but also Luther but Calvin in particular taught But every human person has dignity before God And that every calling whether I'm a baker or a butcher or a farmer or or You know a merchant or I'm a nurse or a teacher or whatever whatever I am That my calling is to serve God in everything I do That there is no place of service which is beneath the dignity of the believer And that my calling then is to devote myself to set my life apart And what I do in my workplace and everywhere else to the service of God Now that transforms the way you see yourself And what may say that there are elements of capitalism Which are profoundly related to a Christian understanding of the human person and human responsibility Now we have to acknowledge as well That there are other elements of capitalism as it's practiced Which are more closely related to human sin If you look at most of the corporate takeovers which take place right now in the United States I heard the chance of Denver University one day saying on the radio that 98% of all corporate takeovers Have no concern whatsoever for the company that's taken over But simply for the power and wealth of the individual who takes them over Now You can think of the Harvard Business School at the present time being so distressed by the total breakdown of ethics Within the stock broken community But it has started it has put millions of dollars into a foundation to try to find A basis to teach ethics to businessmen and women Because we're really in a serious situation right now Because For the non-Christian In our culture The own the primary moral value for people as a shape has said personal peace and affluence And for many Christians There is a view of life where gods where it doesn't touch my business life Because that's secular It's not part of my sacred calling Christians haven't been salt and light in this area with a with a few notable exceptions So we're in a situation where there's a radical breakdown within the business community What you have is capitalism in that situation Which then just simply gives in to human sin To to greed To power to privilege Etc It's no longer restrained by a sense of responsibility to the society or a sense of obligation Let me give illustration from England just before I came over here I heard the the the heads of one of our major stockbroken companies in Britain say I am looking for young men and women who are ruthless greedy and aggressive Now he said this on on television those are the people I want to work for me
Now obviously if you're looking for people like that the amount of corruption in the business community the amount of just What what we call the unacceptable face of capitalism in the sense of just untrammeled greed And we see a lot of it in the savings and loan industry right at the moment in terms of its collapse Is going to increase more and more but What Christianity brings to what we might say capitalism is several things First it brings this sense of individual accountability and responsibility before God And the sense of freedom the individual has before God so I can really make something of my life I don't have to stay doing the same thing my family has done for generations I have the possibility of really going out and exploring and understanding and exercising dominion over the world Our many pagan religions in particular do not allow people to affect their environment at all
Because the environment itself is seen to be dominated by spirits you can't change anything I have a friend who works in in Africa in Kenya Where the very impoverished tribe of people Uh who have plenty of resources to make their life less impoverished but their religious view keeps them in complete Camptivity to the situation they would be offending against the spirits of their ancestors Against the spirits of of the land in which they live if they were to change anything if they were to have a more efficient Agriculture or Christianity comes into such a situation with a tremendously liberating message You are not banned by such things you exist before God you are called by God to have dominion over your environment to set back the vans of the fall That's a very dramatic message But what Christianity and what that will create in any situation is what we might say the beginnings of a capitalist economy But what Christianity also contributes is some other things which are equally important The first is a sense of moral accountability to God But my let's say use of the environment my employment of other people Uh is ruled by God's standards of justice and righteousness So as Paul says to the masters you're going to have to give an account to God one day for what you're doing
That will be that will be the second that that will be another fundamental element which Christianity will contribute to to this discussion A third will be a sense of stewardship But with regard let's say to the environment The Christian won't simply abuse and dominate the environment Exploited One sees one has a sense of responsibility For future generations and ultimately before God Respond at very clear in the Old Testament law Where you have both the element of dominion here God gives the people of Israel a land Which has gold and copper in the hills which can be dug out a lamb which is fertile a land where they can irrigate their Pastures etc They're going to change the environment that's what dominion means But at the same time they're given it in trust by God for future generations Uh, they are required to take care of it And the whole system of agriculture as it's laid out in the Old Testament requires care for the land The fields themselves are given a sabbatical break And modern farming now knows that that's necessary actually For for the land itself To be replenished And where there is a return to what's called sustainable agriculture today There is a recognition that letting land life follow is essential If you're going to To make it productive forever and ever and ever So there's that third element there which is a sense of stewardship before God that this is his land Which he has given us in trust which is not simply mine to make money of But has to be passed on to the next generation so they can make their living from it too And you can think of the Jubilee laws in the Old Testament and so on that's a third element A fourth element is what Shae for used to call the compassionate use of accumulated wealth when he was talking about The bounds that Christianity sets on capitalism But we might just call it simply mercy Fundamental to the Old Testament law when it's talking let's say to the business person Which in that context was a problem Was the requirement To be merciful to the poor and to share what one has with the stranger and with the widow and the orphan And And know where it's the the Christian doesn't see what I have the money I produce by my hard work Which I'm right to do before God and the idea of profit it is not wrong Pulse is the hard-working farmer deserves a share of the crops It's a thoroughly biblical principle But if I put something in I ought to expect something back and that's the way God has created the world but I'd the Christian doesn't then say what I have is mine it's mine completely because that's like the rich man who said So you built your barns take your ease and be satisfied The Christian sees themselves before God is having a responsibility to care for the needs of their fellow human beings so that that That right sense of of productivity of profit from my labor is tempered by a sense of obligation To my fellow human beings who may have less than I do and Again, wherever you see Christianity really being lived that in practice It has that effect And I would see that I would say there are still some elements of the that in this society as a whole even though it's moved so far from Christianity The reason so many of these charities Uh can gain vast amounts of money Is that there is still what solves in it's in called vast reserves of mercy and sacrifice Which still is seen as a fundamental part of humanity In this culture even by people who most of the time think about themselves only But there is still something that appealed to there is still a memory There is still a memory of That calling to show compassion for the needs of one's fellow human beings So that whenever you have one of these telephones raising money for something they will raise money Vast vast a man summit Whether it's for famine in some other part of the world or or whatever it is People are responsive And part of that is it's still a memory Of that Christian gospel which calls people to gear was God has given to us But there are all sorts of ways in which in which we might say capitalism is constrained or restrained by Christian doctrine Another I would want to add is this and really I've mentioned it already, but let's express it more carefully I don't think the Christian can ever be for what's called laissez faire capitalism That is capitalism which is completely uncontrolled If you look in the Old Testament law again You see that That business is never left alone Because God recognizes that people are sinful And therefore there are standards of justice which God applies to the business community And which a government has the calling to apply today If you say well we will have no restraints whatsoever on the market In a sinful world you guarantee that there's going to be exploitation and oppression Unless every individual is a really devout believer Well every individual isn't And believers too need the restraints of the law sadly it ought not to be like that but they do
You know Paul says to the Christians in Romans 13 you know obey the laws Well not just out of fear but out of her conscience sake But often in our situation we're in a situation where Where there's been so little teaching about conscience In the business community in our churches But you have Christian businessmen obeying the law out of fear rather than out of conscience sake And that's terrible that we should be able to say that That that can that that could be a reality But there does need to be restraints
There was restraints in every area by the law of God Because of the recognition of human sin Now is there a real alternative either to capitalism or socialism? I mean is there an a third alternative yes a placebo yes Yeah, that's a good question. Is there is there a real alternative because capitalism The question is seems so bound up with with with money or profit being the end Whereas the heart of Christianity is that the worship of God and the enjoyment of them is the end That's a good question I think again though We have to ask the question In what context did capitalism arise historically? It arose within a context where the chief end was God Now what are calling to do as Christians? Is see capitalism is simply a description really if we want to get it down to it's basics of A view of society in economic terms where people are free to work And to benefit from that work that they do That they are able to make their own choices in the marketplace rather than having central government legislate for them what they should do But that's how capitalism arose historically Now capitalism may have become In the modern materialistic west Something which for many people has as its end Simply profit But the point I'm trying to make is that that is not fundamental To the development of the notion itself What is fundamental to it much at a much deeper level Is a view of who we are before God that we are made with the possibility Of developing our own lives of using the gift God has given us an exercising dominion over the world in which he set us That is that is fundamental you see in some societies Nothing like capitalism could ever conceivably develop Because you have this set of beliefs Which make people in total subjection to to their environment to the spirits to whatever But by coming and declaring freedom to people Freedom before God to To develop their own life You immediately creating the possibility for for what we have called capitalism There are all sorts of other things which go along with it a sense of hard work that is actually worth working To work hard you have to believe it's worth working That you can actually make a difference for your own life and the life of your family And that it is right to benefit from that Now again, that is something which is which is fundamental to capitalism
But living for money alone Or for profit alone is not fundamental to it It's certainly an essential part of describing what it's become But it isn't fundamental to it That's right our calling then as Christians in this moment of history Is to rescue those biblical notions Which are at the heart of it is the very helpful book written by Michael Novak He's a Catholic theologian called the spirit of democratic capitalism Which is dealing with dealing with some of these issues It has some very remarkable things he is asking the question in particular as a historian of economics why Catholicism didn't produce something different in Latin America And why Protestantism did produce something different in North America and in Western Europe And he he goes back the question of saying it's a matter of being faithful to fundamental biblical doctrines actually That it was as Calvin and others like him taught God's word really clearly and plainly But economic reality began to be transformed
Whereas where Christianity is seen as sort of a preservation of the state as quo Which it has been in most countries where there's been a state church Where the state and the church have been bound together that the church has become so corrupted by that It has been simply a force of ideological conservatism Where it's set free from that and where there's a real proclamation of the word of God Then you have a tremendous force of a change in the economic situation or in any other aspect of the society But I would say yes, I mean, I'm not interested in defending capitalism as such I'm interested in in and particularly as it's practiced at the moment See, I think what you've got to recognize is this that if you look at the development of capitalism as we know it up to the time of Adam Smith And our freedom Smith it's really quite different Because up until the time of Adam Smith You have an understanding of economic reality Which is constrained first of all by a sense of obligation to God and accountability to God Secondly, by a recognition of Our human possibilities and responsibility thirdly by a recognition of human sin So there need to be restraints But with the rise of deism You can look at Adam Smith And pain for example And see that their understanding of capitalism is rather different Because for them freedom itself economically becomes the primary goal
They don't have a sufficiently deep view I would say either of the complexity of this fallen world Or of the reality of human sin to see that there need to be judicial restraints On economic exercise On employment Because you have those in the Old Testament law You have laws about employment You have laws about justice In relationships You have laws about loans and interests You have all kinds of laws Which set limits on what you might call a free market But with Adam Smith and from that point onwards You have an understanding of capitalism Which has no sense whatsoever of human sin and the need for restraint And once you forget that human beings are sinful Then you open the door for freedom economically being a goal of its own And as a Christian view disappears And the sense of stewardship of the environment disappears And the sense of accountability to God disappears What you end up with is a system which becomes Which can become for many people a kind of idolatry Just the worship of profit for its own sake Or a power for its own sake But you have really something which then is set loose from its roots
Which is set loose from its roots And so I would say the problem isn't with the beast itself It's what it's become as a non-Christian understanding Has shaped its development more and more