Okay, here we are. I'm stalling because I don't really want to talk about Providence this point. Oh, I do. I do. It's part of God's word and it's good. So we should go forward. But we're going to take one more week and it's just this question of how do you put together God's control of all things and then how actions have real meaning. And so we've been two weeks on this. What I'm going to do this week, I'm going to review a little bit, look at some of these verses again, and then I'm going to give some time to explaining what's called the Armenian position. It's a position different from what I have come to and what I hold, but it's a position that's been there in the evangelical world for centuries. And it's a responsible evangelical position. A number of my friends in the professional world hold this viewpoint, particularly Jack Cotroll at Cincinnati Bible College who's a very careful scholar and Grant Osborne, a New Testament professor who taught with me for many years at Trinity is an Armenian. And Alan Coppage, my friend at Asbury Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky, is a committed, explicit, thoughtful, articulate Armenian. And all of you probably have Armenian tendencies in your mind because it's kind of what people think instinctively. And what I've been trying to do with these Bible passages is say, hmm, there's another way to look at this, but it isn't what we would think of instinctively until we see a Bible. So let's try this. If I can, there we go. Today, we've done the schedule. No, we're going to the third week on Providence. Next week miracles, then we have guest teacher, guest teacher, and then start on the doctrine of prayer last week of November. And then prayer again in December in angels and Satan and demons. So we're moving through the chapters in the book. All right. So next week miracles. I don't know Trent, what's going on here. These, I thought I hid. I'm going to teach from the back of the room today just for a minute. I don't know what's our new technology is not working. It's not, it's not, not. Trent, can we do that? Can I just have you switch slides? I go through about 30 of them. We're getting new bad here. Okay. Oh, and the global warming handout I ran out of week, I've got 10 more here if somebody wants to. There they are. Sorry for the confusion here. Okay. Trent, I have new batteries in. You've got controls all things. Why is this happening?
Okay. Trent, I'm going to try it. Maybe the curtains worked a couple of it worked last week.
Okay. Trent, can we go to about slide 30? This is all stuff we did before. What about evil? Perfect.
Let's back up about three slides. Now, okay, go forward then onto what about evil. I see where I am. What about evil? That's where we last week. This is review. What about evil? We must be careful to be faithful to scripture, not say more or less than scripture says. Avoid misunderstandings and realize that there is mystery here that we can't understand. So we have Joseph. God sent me before you to preserve life or you meant evil against me but God meant it for good. God saying I will harden Pharaoh's heart. Next slide. And God has mercy on whom he wills and hardens whomever he wills of the Canaanite or the Egyptians. He turned his hearts, he turned their hearts to hate his people. This has got working in the hearts of the unbelieving sinful Egyptians or the Canaanites. It was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel and battle. Or Job saying the Lord gave the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. Next slide. This is all reviewed. I'll go on. Second Thessalonians 2, 11-12. God sends on them a strong delusion that they may believe what is false. Let's go on to the next slide. Two observations on these verses. Never ever in the whole Bible, Genesis to Revelation, never does the Bible show God directly doing anything evil, but rather ordaining that evil deeds come about through the willing actions of moral creatures. So somehow there is this distance between God and he plans ordains that evil will come about, but he doesn't do the evil directly. Satan or demons or sinful human beings or Pharaoh or the Canaanites, they do the evil or the people who crucified Jesus. So God ordained that it came about, but he did not himself do the evil. So there's somehow a protection of the goodness of God in that that he doesn't do evil. And number two, the Bible never blames God. Never blames God for evil or shows God is taking pleasure in evil. And neither should we and the Bible never excuses human beings for the wrong that they do, neither should we. And so we get an Ezekiel 33-11. Turn, turn, why will you perish? Says the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. So God does not take pleasure in evil. And we should not ever do that even though he ordains that it come about for his larger purpose ultimately of showing his glory in the universe, in the judgment of evil and the contrast of his goodness against evil. Analysis of verses relating to God and evil. God uses evil for his glory and for our good as he in bringing of Joseph to Egypt or in the crucifixion of Christ certainly. And even in our lives, for those who love all things work together for good, for those who are according to his purpose. And Joseph, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. Next slide. Nevertheless, God never does evil and is never to be blamed for doing evil. God has always removed from actually doing evil. So the son of man goes as it has been determined, that's God's plan. But woe to that man by whom he has betrayed, that's the blame for the evil that human beings do. And we'll go on to the next slide. And go on to the next slide. And Romans 9, 19 to 20, you will say to me then, why does he still find fault for who can resist his will? And Paul might have said, now this is bias, I know. But if Paul were on Armenian, he would have said, why does he still find fault for who can resist his will? Paul would have said, well, God had to make people with the ability to choose evil. Otherwise choices wouldn't have been real. But that isn't what he says is who are you a man to answer back, God? Which is amazing. And he just says, this is God, and ultimately you don't have a right to question. It's really a strong, strong verse. Okay, let's go on to the next slide. Evil is real, not an illusion. And I don't want to minimize this. We should never do evil. It will always harm us and others. The latest, not an temptation, but deliver us from evil. Whoever brings back a soul or James 5, whoever brings back a soul from his center from his wandering will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. And we should abstain from simple passions. They wage war against your soul. And so even though God ordains that evil will come about for his good purpose in ways that we don't always know, that are mysterious, yet we should never do that and think, oh, I'll just do a little wrong in order to bring about a greater good. That's always wrong for us. So we never should do that. All right, next slide. And finally, in spite of all of that, we have to confess, I think at least I do, that we do not understand how it is that God can somehow ordain that we carry out evil deeds and yet hold us accountable for them and not be blamed himself. Then are we free? Do we have free will? I am really hesitant to use the word free because many people think that free means outside of God's control. And I don't think we are in that sense but we are free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free. We make willing choices choices that have real effects. And I know I've made some stupid decisions and I look back on them and they say, wait, why did you do that? That was dumb. That was wrong. And I have, and sometimes I don't know if this happens to you, but all every once in a while, all right, I'm going to sleep at night, I'm waking up in the morning, I think I think back to some mistake I made in bringing up our kids when they were younger and they're still thinking about it. And I don't ever say God, why do you make me do that? Never. That's blaming God for evil. I say, oh, why did I do that? Oh, Lord, thank you. You know, I'm thank you that I'm forgiven or, you know, if it's recent, I say, Lord, please forgive me for what I've done wrong. Okay, now I was going to give you something. I don't need to give you an example, but I can ask in the question time. Okay, two strict, two lenient with kids helping them too much, just mistakes. We just do that. Okay, let's go on. The importance of our human actions, we are still responsible. Our actions have real results and do change the course of events. Okay, let's go on. Next slide. And prayer is one specific action that does change the course of events. We pray, and we pray about family things, we pray about national things. I pray about Supreme Court Justices and we pray about things in our neighborhood and things in my teaching, many other things, and that has real effects. How do I know? Well, because the Bible says so, we're supposed to pray. Okay, and you do not have because you do not ask. So, okay, we go on to the next one, turn. And in conclusion, we must ask, we must act. And it's very interesting, and this is where we ended last week. I didn't talk about this first. Acts 18, 9 to 10. Paul goes to Corinth. He starts to preach to the gospel of Corinth. And he's got lots of opposition. And he's discouraged. And he thinks, this is going nowhere. Maybe I should just go on. I mean, that's what Athens, he kind of spoke on the area of Apagus, these philosophers, and a few people believed, but there wasn't any church founded there. Well, maybe he made a mistake, come into Corinth. So, he's discouraged. And then it says, the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, do not be afraid, but go on speaking, and do not be silent, for I'm with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people. They hadn't yet come to faith in Christ, but God had already chosen them. Now, see, a fatalistic view would say, oh God, if you've chosen all those people to be believers, they'll become believers no matter what I do. And I don't want to take this hassle, this persecution. I'm out of here. I'm going for vacation. Go to one of his Greek islands and sit on the beach. But you know what Paul did? Oh, I didn't read the next verse. It says, he stayed a year and six months, preaching the gospel, second longest of any city. He's, there's an effort, Ephesus, a year and a half in Corinth. God says, I have many people here that are, basically, that I've chosen to be mine. And so Paul stays so that he will be the means by which they come to the Lord, because he knows that God works through means. So we must act. Our actions are important. And second Timothy 210 is the general principle that Paul says, I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. So all this, you know, being beaten, being put in prison, being shipwreck, being stoned in Iconium or Lister, I guess, and left for dead. That wasn't fun at all. I mean, they threw stones at Paul enough to crush his body and probably his skull. They thought he was dead. And he wasn't dead. But my goodness, he's enduring all that so that the people that God has chosen to become believers will become believers. Isn't that interesting? He knows that his actions are important. Now number five, if we can't understand this fully, we believe what the Bible teaches. We obey what God commands, and we don't fret overly much about the fact that we can't figure this out, for seminary students who make a big deal out of fretting over this a lot. Sorry Eric. And John, no, I'm joking with you, but it happens. Okay, let's go on to the next slide. Practical application. Here's the payoff for this doctrine for me before I talk about the Armenian view. The payoff for me is don't be afraid, but trust in God. So I'm going to put that together. I have to act. I have to do what's right. I have to be responsible because it brings results. But then I have to have peace in my heart at the same time. Peace regarding the outcome of world events. Peace regarding this terrorism threat that we have. Peace regarding financial and economic situations. Peace regarding health situations. Peace regarding the future of our country. I can be at peace about that regarding our children. And what's going to happen with regard to that? I can trust in God. Jesus says, are not two sparrows sold for a penny, and not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your father. So there's detailed, providential guidance, events of birds falling to the ground. You drive along, I just saw this morning, the dead bird on the road, not one fell to the ground without without apart from the father overseeing guiding directing. And when I see a dead bird on the road, I should be thinking, I'm much more valuable than that. Are you, even the hairs of your head are all numbered? No jokes. I was going to skip that. I didn't highlight it. And then if you're not there for you are of more value than many sparrows. So God cares more for us. And he looks after us. Okay, next. So David can say, in peace I will both lie down and sleep for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety. I'm not sure if that's David or just the psalmist, but his enemies are chasing him, attack him, he can sleep in peace because he trusts in the Lord. That's a payoff for God's providence. If God's in control of everything, then be a peace. Trust him. Get a good sleep. And a first Peter one six to seven, in this year rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials. Very interesting. If hardship and suffering comes into your life, Peter says, and this is writing to Christians who have been who are being persecuted, if necessary, that has to do with a sense of what God deemed necessary for his long-term purposes for the world and his purposes for our lives. If necessary, we have been grieved by various trials so that the tested genuineness of your faith more precious than gold that parishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory in honor of the revelation of Jesus Christ. What that means is that when we endure trials in this life, it's so that the tested genuineness, this document, this is the quality of having been through and shown your character. When Abraham was tested in the offer, there was a tested genuineness to his faith. God saw it demonstrate. And you know, maybe in friends or relatives or in your own life, when hardship has come and God's given you the ability to trust in him through the hardship, your faith is strengthened, right? Isn't it? Yeah, money. Okay. Your faith is strengthened by things that you've got. Some of you are nodding. You know that there's a test of genuineness and God looks on that and says, I know it was hard and you trusted me and I'm pleased. I'm pleased.
So that's a wonderful perspective with which to view the Christian life and to you, difficulties and hardship in our lives. Are we going to come through? So the tested genuineness of your faith, God sees it and he's pleased, your faith is real. How real it's more precious? I think that means more precious to God than parishes and more precious to us than parishes, though it's tested by fire. Look at this so that the test of genuineness of your faith may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. That's one of Jesus' returns. The full result of you trusting in God through hardship might not be seen till Jesus returns. So you might not even see it in this life. I mentioned Alexander's loss of his wife in an auto accident, last week, about a year ago, the lower year ago. We see some out of that terrible tragedy. We see some good that has come from that. In our own walk with the Lord and Alexander's walk with the Lord, we see some, but you know, we don't see the whole of it. And I think this verse says, we may not in this life see the whole of it. And you know what? If we die before Christ returns, we may not even understand the whole of it when we die, but when Jesus returns and the secrets of all hearts are revealed, then at the revelation of Jesus Christ, the genuine faith of our son ended. I suppose just some measure of us and others in the family, that that then will result in praise and glory and honor. And for you, it has been hardship. Or right now in your middle of hardship, and you're just saying, Lord, thank you, I can trust in you in this. God sees it. He stores it up in his book. And on the last day, he'll say, Garth, Sandy, Frank, Norma, I'm pleased. You trusted me. It was tough, and you trusted me. And I'm thankful. Praise and glory and honor to God. Yeah, we give to him. We say, well, you didn't yield me, Lord, but I think pray and honor to us too. It doesn't specify. I think probably it's bold. And there's reward. And then he'll say, well done. I'm pleased. So there's, then we see a larger purpose here that we can trust you on. Number two, be thankful for all good things that happens. Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits. Every time some little good blessing comes into our lives, I think God wants us, and Dr. Providence, I think you want to say, thank you Lord. Thank you, this is good. This is from you, rather than saying, oh, just good things happen in life. I'm so lucky. That doesn't honor God. Okay. And then there's no such thing as luck or chance. God is in control. He's on the throne. This is so contrary to our culture. Our culture just thinks that they have these little superstitious rituals, or you read your horoscope, or you know, if you hit the bat on the plate three times, you'll get a, you know, you'll get a hit. I just think that in grade school. Before I read the Bible more. Okay. And there isn't such thing as luck or chance. It's, it's, remember, God is in control. And that gives a God-centered view of all of life. That is so healthy, so refreshing. Okay, next one. No. No. With all that, no, what about this other evangelical view, the Armenian position. Here are the main points of the Armenian position, named after Jacob Arminius, who lived 1560 to 1609 in Holland. I guess this isn't on your outline because I just added some of this last night.
Yes, Tom. I did actually, I said it was all done, but I did after everybody left. I did add a couple of more things here because I thought I'll tweak that a little bit. Okay. So named after Jacob Arminius, a Dutch theologian. This is not the Armenian position. Arminia is an ancient country in Western Asia, east of Turkey. It obtained its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. And, and it, and it's kind of between Europe and Asia and Patries and Robert Giridian, our Armenian descent. And Patries told us last night in 3031 AD, Arminia was the first country to officially adopt Christianity in the history of the world. And in New Testament manuscripts, the Armenian translations of the Greek New Testament are very early manuscripts that help us know what the early text of the Bible was. And so, and if you have people whose name ends in IAM, they're generally from Armenian descent. So this is not the Armenian position. I don't know if Bob and Patries hold this or not, but they are Armenians. They may or may not be Armenians. Got it? Okay. First you've ever heard that. Are you a Calvinist or an Armenian? Well, I'm not an Armenian, I'm Norwegian. And little Swedish and Irish thrown it. Okay. So it's not the Armenian position. It's the Armenian position. And an excellent statement of it, which I have students read, so they have a good acquaintance with both viewpoints, is in this book, The Grace of God, The Will of Man, a case for Armenianism, edited by Clark Pinnick, and my friend Grand Osborne has an essay in here, and my friend William Craig has an essay in here. I Howard Marshall, whom I know, has an essay in here. Jack Cotroll has an essay in here. So here we go. The denominations differ on this issue. And I just want to say, historically, there have been differences in denominations who have chosen what's a call the Calvinist or Reform view, and what's called an Armenian view, and then a lot of denominations are just mixed. And the Scotia Bible Church tradition has been mostly mixed, but largely the Calvinist or Reform tradition. And John McArthur really is strongly Calvinist or Reform tradition, and R.C. Sproul is, and other people. But the Armenian position has historically been the position of the Methodist church, and John Wesley. It's been the position of the Nazarene church, church the Nazarene, which Dr. Dobson comes out of, and it's been historically the position of largely the Christian churches, Church of Christ tradition, not entirely, but a lot. And Jack Cotroll is in that, and a number of, but not all, assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups have been Armenian position, not all, because there'll be differences within that. But on the other side, on the Calvinist or Reform side, just in big categories, has been Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, where I went, Reform Seminary in Orlando, Covenant Seminary in St. Louis, Dallas Seminary and Talbot have been more close to the Reformed and Calvinist position. The Presbyterian Church, the Bible-believing ones are officially, confessionally reformed, and so Christian reformed would be that way too, although they've strayed from scripture somewhat recently. And Baptists have historically been mixed. Some very strong, reformed statements in the history of the Baptist, but then some Armenians, all mixed, and even today, there's big disputes in the Southern Baptist Convention about these different things. Okay? It's a strong, both sides, but they both are, okay, within the Southern Baptist, Episcopal Church of England, its historic statement has been very reformed in the 39 articles, but it's mixed today. Lutherans have been very reformed or Calvinistic with Martin Luther in his book, The Bondage of the Will, Historically, but there's more mixed today. So a lot of denominations are mixed on this. All right, so there's denominational difference. Now, the main points of the Armenian position, number one, here's the fundamental point. In order to preserve the real human freedom and real human choices that are necessary for genuine human personhood, God cannot cause or plan our voluntary choices. And so that is the Armenian viewpoint. And it's probably the instinctive viewpoint that many of you had someone, someone sent me an email this week, said, oh, God had to give us choices. Otherwise, our choices wouldn't be real, and they couldn't be planned by him, okay? Doesn't this sound good? It's kind of the instinctive view that people hold. And, oh, what page was that on? Can you back up one slide, Trent? 337. I just wanted to read you a quote.
Okay, let's go on to the next one. Really, and so now, how do you explain these verses that I about, you know, God works all things according to the counsel of His will, He fashions of all people, et cetera. Well, what about Pharaoh? What about Joseph's brother? What about the crucifixion of Jesus? Jack Control, my friend would say, and Clark Pinnick would say, these verses are examples of God's providential control. They're exceptions, and they do not describe the way that God ordinarily works in human activity. So, Clark Pinnick says, God's plan for the world is not a blueprint encompassing all future contingencies, but a dynamic program for the world, the outworking of which he pins in part on man. And, Jack Control says, God does not have a specific unconditional purpose for each discrete particle object person and event within the creation. And so, God sees what people are doing and he adjusts his plan and brings about his result. Pinnick says, the fall of man, the fall of man, that's sin, is an eloquent refutation to the theory that God's will is always done. And, I hired Marshall from this book. It says, it is not true that everything that happens is what God desires. Well, now, in some sense, I'm going to agree with that, because God or things that he doesn't, he doesn't pleased with, evil things, he doesn't delight in them. But, but there is a real difference here. Okay, so then, on the verses, these are exceptions and do not describe the way God ordinarily works. So, Jack Control says, when I, if I would refer to Joseph you meant against me for evil, God meant it for good, or Jesus delivered up according to the determinant counseling plan of God, you crucified and killed. Control says, these are unusual events, quote, it is natural that the Old Testament teams with accounts of special providence. But we have no reason to assume that God was working in Australia and South America in such ways at the same time. Number three, the Calvinist view, this would say, wrongly makes God responsible for sin. And so they would say, God cannot be tempted with evil. He himself tempts no one. And they would say, it sure sounds like, if God ordains that Pharaoh hardens his heart or the Cadenite's heart and the heart, it sure sounds like God is tempting people with evil. And then the Bible says he doesn't. And the number John 1, 5, God is light and him is no, God can't ordain that people, because that wouldn't be light, that would be darkness. And Psalm 92, 15, the Lord is upright. There's no unrighteousness in him. So they would say, this just strikes against our moral sensibilities to say that God ordains that evil events come about. It's rather, God just created the world and he waited to see what Satan would choose and then what Adam and Eve would choose and what Joseph's brothers would choose and what Pharaoh would choose. He waited to see. And he had to leave that freedom in order for it to be real choice. And so then people chose evil. Well then he sent Christ to solve the problem. Okay, so that's the viewpoint. Okay, next slide. And then for choices caused by God cannot be real choices. And so they'll say, with every temptation, God will always provide the way to escape that you may be able to endure it. There's always a way of not sinning. And so if a very formed person or a Calvinistic person says, God plans that evil will be done by creatures, then there's no way to escape. And so that's going to do. And then number five, they would say the opposition. Number five, go back. Encourage is responsible Christian living. Well, the Christian Calvinist view encourages a dangerous fatalism. If God has planned everything, then you just kind of doesn't matter what you do. That's fatalism. Okay, so then questions on that. Or do you want to cut Dr. Sandy? Yes. It strikes me that the presentation of the Calvinist reform in Washington Armenia is very much dichotomy within. What if you hold a position or is it tenable to hold a position that God knows the choices that people are going to make? And so his plan has already been in place because God is not found by time like his creatures are. And so seeing it all, because it's always known what the choices were. So it's not the justine to what the choices are. Not to put us in control which is certifying God, but that God has always known what the choices would be. And so his plan was in place. It's like I get you before Christ. From this side, we see whoever will make come. And from God's side, it's chosen from the foundation of the rule. Okay, there are two things there. Sandy said to me before class, from this side of eternity, we see whosoever will make come and we trust in Christ. Okay, and then you get through the gates of eternity. You look back on the back side of the portal or the gate. It says, I've chosen you before the foundation of the world. And I said, I like that because it combines, it says both are true. My choices are real and it's important and it does significantly affect what happens with my life and others. And I get to the other side and I say, hey, God planned that all. Okay, so I want to say both are true. And it seems to me that the criticisms are saying, you can't have both. You can't have real choices if God plans them. I think that's what's going on in the criticism. Because instinctively that does, it seems like that must be. Now, now, there's another question. Could it be, and this is, this is another part, I didn't put this up here, but an Arminian view would also say, most of them would say, God knew what would happen, but he didn't plan it. Okay, he just, he knows the future. So he see, and he adjust, but he doesn't plan it. And I would say, no, he both knows and plans. So there's a difference there. And now, now, now I want to respond to this Arminian view, give you my response to it, but I want to say before I respond, if you go out of this class and you decide that you want, you were an Arminian, or you heard my presentation, and now you are an Arminian, and an Arminian, an Arminian. Anyway, if you want to hold an Arminian view, you are still a member of Scott Still Bible Church. You are still a member of this class. You are still my friend. You're still a believer. We're still going to be together in heaven forever. Okay, we just differ on a really, really harsh, is that fair? I just, I want to put that, I want to put that in perspective, Jack.
You could, you could be turned around. So Jackson, couldn't you say to Arminian, well, don't aren't you being a DS? It's too removed. You could argue those both ways. I should also say that with classic Arminianism has, as far as I know, all who hold it, also say you can lose your salvation. And so someone coming from a Wesleyan or Methodist background, which has done wonderful, much good for the history of the church, and many of these people that I quote, have done much good in, in the history of the church, but, but they would say I, I, I can't lose my salvation in a, in a reformed or Calvinist view would say no, you can't lose your salvation. So you like that. Okay, okay, let's go on. Next, okay, my response is, are these passages on New Samples or do they describe the way God works ordinarily? It seems to me he brews one three, for instance, he upholds the universe by his word of power. He continually upholds all things by his word of power. That's not saying, just in the Middle East or in Israel, it's saying also in South America and in Australia. And out in all the galaxies. Now, Galatians 117, in him, all things hold together. Ephesians 111, he works all things according to the council. This is a magnificent astounding, overwhelming, universal, eternal control of God over the events of the world. And it gives me peace, gives me great peace. It doesn't make me fatalistic because I know I have to get up when that alarm clock goes off, or else I won't get here on time. And I'm still not getting here quite on time, but I'm getting here. I mean, I'm not getting here quite what I want, but we're getting closer. But I am here, because I got up, because the alarm clock went off, because I said it last night, because I'm responsible for what I do. I don't go to, oh, I've got one somebody to teach that class, he would have to teach the class. I don't care if I said the alarm. Not tomorrow morning. I know what'll happen then. I won't show up, possibly. Okay, let's go on. Next, number two, the plans of the heart belong to the man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. That seems like a general statement. Psalm 33, from where he sits and throne, he looks out on the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all, and observes their deeds. Okay, now that doesn't mean that's fixed forever, because we should pray for God to change people's hearts, right? God changed Saul's heart and became the apostle Paul. Okay, so we should pray. And the king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever he will. We should pray for kings and government people. God would change their hearts. But still, that saying God has control over people's hearts. It's God, Philippians 2, 13, who works in you to willing to work for his good pleasure. Okay, let's go on. Does the Calvinist doctrine of God's Providence make God responsible for sin? That's another, my friend Jack Kotrol is saying this. And I say, well, no, it doesn't because I want to hold both. God's control over me and my responsibility. Again, that's why I kept hitting that, saying Bible portrays us as responsible for our actions. And so Peter, on Pentecost, he can stand up and he say, this Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. That's detail, plan and knowledge, not just foreknowledge, definite plan. Then he says, you crucified and killed by the hands of Wallace men. So the blame goes back on the people who did the wrong. There's another verse in Acts where he says, Pontius Pilate and the Gentiles and the rulers of the Jews were gathered in this city to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. I mean, that's all those details of the crucifixion yet the people are responsible. Number three, can choices ordained by God be real choices? Well, see, here's the, this is the heart of the question. What's a real choice? And he says, well, in my mind, it seems to me a real choice is one that God didn't ordain to happen. And that's the heart of the challenge. When I say, well, it might seem that way to you, but I cannot find support for that in the Bible. What seems to me in the Bible is what I to do, what I choose to do, what I decide to do, that's what is a real choice. Well, that can't be real. Well, how do you know? God created everything. Can he decide what is real? So number two, I don't think it makes God responsible for sin, human beings and demons are responsible for sin. Number three, I think choices ordained by God ultimately are real choices. And it's like, I don't know that they're ordained by God till after they're done. So what I do is I want to do right. And I say, oh, well, thank you for enabling me to do right. Number four, does it, does a Calvinistic view encourage a dangerous fatalism or a tendency to quote live like our minions? No, I think it encourages responsibility because we have both. Number, okay, next slide, additional objections. Now here, here's where I would hesitate about the Armenian position. I would say, and our Armenian position, how can God really know the future? Because see, well, someone could say, when you're going to get a big Mac, no, I'm not going to get a big Mac, because I'm going with Margaret for breakfast and I'm waiting for her birthday. What am I going to get? You're going to get, what do you call that stuff that has the Bernays sauce on it with eggs? Eggs, you're going to get eggs Benedict, Margaret likes that. Okay. When you're going to get eggs Benedict, tomorrow at 838 AM, when you're celebrating Margaret's birthday, you're going out for, because
how does God know that? Well, he just looked into the future and saw it. Well, then does it have to happen that way? It has to happen that way. God knows it. But if it has to happen, then where's my freedom? See, I don't think the Armenian position solves that. See, what makes it happen? Well, it just is going to happen. It's fixed. Otherwise, God couldn't know it. Well, then you don't have freedom in Armenian view either. Are you following me? And that puzzle, if goes it, but he didn't plan it, still determined if he knows it, because he's got wrong knowledge. That puzzle, if God knows it, then it has to happen. And then I don't have freedom. That puzzle drove some Armenians to say God doesn't know our future choices. And that was Clark Pinnick who edited this book, ended up taking that viewpoint. And then God doesn't know the future, and then you're concerted 2,000 verses in the bible that my student, one of my students counted one time, where God knows future choices of human beings. And so that's a difficulty. So I think there's a puzzle there for an Armenian. Number two, on our Armenian view, how can evil exist if God did not want it? See, my answer is God ordained that evil would come about so that he would try and forward so that we would choose against it, so that he would be glorified. And even when we endure evil, we honor him, we trust him, and there's glory in God in that. And there's glory to God in that. And then the final judgment, his grace to us will be magnified by the existence of evil that he punishes. There are ways in which evil that is so difficult yet works for the glory of God. But in our Armenian view, as to say, God didn't really want evil to come into the universe, but it happened anyway. Now that ribs me because what do I do about heaven? God doesn't want evil to come about in heaven. We might have come anyway. See? Now we're in trouble. And then how can we know that God will try and forward evil? If it came into the universe and he didn't want it, maybe moral content. And he doesn't want it. And maybe lots of moral content. He doesn't want it. Well, that doesn't give me very peaceful sleep at night. And then if an Armenian position says, in order for a choice to be real, it can't be planned by God. It has to allow for the possibility of evil. And then how do I put that into heaven? See, in heaven, in eternity future, I think of that as a place where there isn't going to be any more sin. And I'm not going to be, yeah, I'm not going to sin. In fact, I'm not going to be able to sin anymore. But I have real choices. If you say for choice to be really, you have to have the genuine possibility of choosing evil. Then for all eternity, I'm thinking there's possibility of evil in heaven. And me, that's a difficult one. So is there another slide after that?
Okay, the difference between the unanswered questions. So I realize this is hard. But the unanswered question for a reformed person is how can God ordain that we do evil willingly, and yet he's not blamed, and how he can cause us to choose something willingly, and yet it be our choice. Those are hard questions. But I think ultimately I answer that in God's infinite greatness, and he can do far more than we could ever think possible. And so the effect of those unanswered questions increases God's glory in my mind. But our minions have unanswered questions about how can God know the future? How does he allow evil when it's against his will? Whether he'll certainly try him for over evil? And those are much more trouble suggestions. How can evil come in the universe if God doesn't want it? And then will it be here forever? So that's why I am. But if you disagree with me, okay, you're still my friend. Okay, what do you think? Now we've got a few minutes left. John, go ahead. Isn't it reasonable to say that he gave us the opportunity or he didn't want us to make an evil, he didn't want us to make a bad decision, but because he isn't controlling us and giving us the, we don't feel like we're being controlled. We feel absolutely. So he allows us to feel free. He allows us to feel free, but we're, but he knows what's going to happen. And so it's just real comfortable to think that way. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable to think. Yeah, okay. I made a, I made stupid motion to be uncontrolled here. Okay, save the sentence, save sentence, summarize it, because I got, I got an odd brain. Well, I was just saying that it's reasonable to, to, that he would allow the possibility, but didn't want us to go that way. Okay, here's the question. I think we have to make two senses of want. When my son Oliver is young, and he directly defies and disobeys his mother, and I spank him, do I want to spank him? I don't want to, but it, but I do spank. Well, why do I spank if I don't want to? Because there's another sense in which I want to, and not that I want that I delight in the thing itself, but I delight, I, I want a longer good for him. Okay, so there are things even in our life that we want, and we don't want. We want in one sense, and we don't want enough. So I think it is with God that in the thing in itself, looking at evil, he does not delight in it, does not want it, and so in the death of the wicked. But in the larger perspectives plan, his wise plan for all of his shows that it will be good. And he can put the cap, he can stop it in heaven, yeah. Okay, good, have me. It's a big voice. Do you think that the Lord grades on a curve when it comes to, I know this sounds silly, but you know, when you're talking about when we were reviewing from last week, and that when people are faithful and receive rewards in heaven, I, I just, you know, somebody who has a deathbed, a confessional, but truly believes, they're still going to gain the crown of salvation. And so, is it kind of a curve? I mean, is it, is it his grace manifested so amazingly that, that it's a thing of beauty and, I think the thief on the cross, who said, Lord, remember me when you come in your kingdom, and Jesus said today, you will be with me in paradise. I think he's in heaven forever, he's really happy, he's rejoicing in the Lord, but I don't think there's the same reward for his for John Wesley, for instance, who preaches the gospel throughout England and he's an Armenian, and he was a wonderful evangelist. Okay, I think there's much greater reward for him. Okay, as long as he didn't lose his salvation Jackson, no, he didn't. Okay, way in the back, back here. I know your name and I've forgotten your name. Mike Savile. Mike, yes, I remember Mike. Going back to the first statement on an Armenian view, how can God know the future? I guess what troubles me is we are chosen. Okay, okay, to be saved. Yeah. And I guess my question is why and or why are the others who aren't going to go to heaven? Why are they not chosen? Okay, this is chapter 16. The question of choosing for salvation is chapter 32, and we'll come, we're going to hit this question again in a bunch of weeks, but I'll just say there's a short, there's a short, the Armenian would say, the reason God chose you, Mike, to be saved, is he looked forward into the centuries of history and so that you would decide to believe, and therefore he chose you. He chose you based on the knowledge that you were going to decide to believe. So the ultimate reason you believe is that you chose to believe. That's Armenian view. A reform or a Calvinist, and I said I hesitated about that word Calvinist, but it's a smiling evangelistic joyful Calvinist, friendly event. Okay, Calvinist view would say the reason that you believed was ultimately that God chose you to believe, not for any merit in yourself, including not for any decision to believe that he foresaw. He chose you simply because he chose you. He just decided to set his love on you. That to me is humbly. I haven't looked at this section for a long time. How are we doing over here? Okay, well right in the front. Joyce, can you still use the analogy of Shakespeare killing Macbeth? Yeah, can I still use the ample of Shakespeare or dainty or planning that the death of Macbeth would happen? I would back off from the language of Shakespeare killing Macbeth because I think it's too liable to be misunderstood. Okay, God planned, I mean Shakespeare planned that Macbeth would die, but he didn't kind of step on stage and kill Macbeth or kill King Duncan. So I want to see he's removed. He's the author and he has, now people say I don't like that analogy because it's just a play. Okay, fine, don't use it. Okay, and okay, Wayne. Basic question from, thank you. Basic question from last week about why is there evil? And it seems to me that God had to plan to have evil if we were to have a choice. What's your opinion on that? Yeah, again, that's another way of putting this question. God had to plan to have evil if we have a choice. And that instinctively seems right to us. And Wayne, let me see the truth. At one level, I want to agree with that in that God, I don't know if I want to use the word had, but it did, God did ordain that evil would come in the world so that he would be glorified when he triumphed over evil. And so that he would be glorified in our choosing of him over evil. I mean, at that level, I think that's true. A lot of the Bible is that. Now, I don't,
there's another level at which I'm, I just want to reserve the idea that in heaven we still have real choices, even though we can't choose evil. Okay? So I think that the realness of it is
that we will it and we decide it. But that's kind of a fine point. Nine years in the classroom tells me, the Wayne Watson has an expressionized face that says, I don't want to pursue this any farther, but you're not making any sense to me at all. Which I'll talk after me. Okay. One more and then we're going to sing. Actually, you know what, Don, can you make this really quick? Because I didn't look for the, go ahead, real quick. I don't know if I can make it quick, but maybe you can. The question I have is you, these, these folks that you were talking about that wrote the book that are also biblical scholars. Yep. Do they have a response for those verses that you used, Hebrews 1, 3, et cetera? Yes, but I can't remember what it is. Let's go to the hymn. It's saying thank you so much for being patient on this. Okay. Here, be still my soul. This is a good hymn to comfort our hearts and encourage us. Let's stand and sing. Lord, I pray that if there has been anything I have said that has dishonored you or your word have been unfaithful to your word that you would just negate it in people's minds, but that you would solidify a anchor all that is true to your word. And Lord, I have a feeling whenever I talk about this and think about it, that there are mysteries here that we still do not understand in our present mind and in this present age. What we bow before you, we submit to you as our great Lord and we exalt you, we glorify you. We think you work all things together for your good purpose. We thank you that all things work together for good, for those who love you and are called according to your purpose. And we thank you that that includes all of us here who have trusted in Jesus as our Savior. And Lord, we do know that your word is sure that one day the Lord Jesus will come back and he will reign and we will glorify him and all things will be for your glory and honor and we will delight in that. And so even in this area, Lord, guard our thinking, help us to understand rightly, we commit our minds and our hearts and our thoughts to you for you are our great God and King in Jesus name. Amen. See you next week.