Death and the Intermediate State

death. Well, I don't want to talk about death. Well, because it's the next element in the order of the blessings that God applies to us as part of our salvation. The order of salvation, we've gone through election, calling regeneration, conversion, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, now we come to death and the intermediate state, and the next week will be the last item glorification. The question is, why do Christians die? And that really raises a little bit of a problem for us in our thinking because haven't we been forgiven for all of our sins? Doesn't Romans 81 say there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus? Well, if there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, then wasn't sin the punishment for death? Well, if the punishment of all our penalty for our sin has been paid by Christ, he died for us, then why do we die? That's a little bit of a puzzle. I think we have to say that death for us should not be seen as a punishment, not as a punishment for Christians, because the penalty for our sins has been paid by Christ. Rather, it must be that God in his wisdom and in his sovereign good pleasure has good purposes for us in allowing us to go through the experience of death, and I suppose leading up to death, aging in death we should say. Well, one point is that God, even though he's forgiven us, he still lets us live in a fallen world, and death is the final outcome of living in a fallen world, because even though Christ has paid in his death for us, he's paid the penalty to earn this perfect fullness of salvation with all its blessings, all those haven't been applied yet. So death isn't yet removed. First Corinthians 1526 looks forward to the future when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So that's the last thing that God's going to wipe out in terms of the consequences of sin in our world, and we do still live in that in a fallen world, and so we get sick from time to time. When there are hurricanes or tornadoes or forest fires, sometimes Christians are harmed by those as well as non-Christians. I mean we just live in this world that's fallen and God hasn't removed us from all the consequences of living in such a world. That's one thing. The next thing is, point three here, God uses the experience of aging and death to complete our sanctification, and we have to go back a few weeks to this stage of sanctification. It begins at the moment we're born again, but then it continues throughout life, this gradual growth in likeness to Christ, and if it continues throughout life then as we come to the end of our life, this experience of aging and death is a process in which God is still working, and he continues to work to complete our growth in likeness to Christ, to complete our sanctification. So there are some encouragement in the New Testament to believers to continue being faithful to Christ, being obedient to him trusting him right until the point of death. Revelation 210, do not fear what you are about to suffer, behold the devil is about to throw some of you into the prison. In the prison that you may be tested, when for 10 days you'll have tribulation, be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. So there's an encouragement to one of the seven churches in Revelation, be faithful unto death, and here in Philippians 1-20 Paul is in prison, he's in prison in Rome, he doesn't know if he's going to get out or not, but he says it's my eager expectation, Philippians 1-20, and hope that I will not all be shame, but that with full courage. Now as always, Christ will be honored in my body whether by life or by death, whether I live, I want to honor Christ in everything that, or if I'm put to death, I want to honor Christ there too, and not be unfaithful, but right to the end he wants to persevere, he wants to, I suppose the phrase that we've heard a lot lately, he wants to finish well, even to the end of his life.

There's a little more we could talk about, I think we may have more passages here, let's see, well Romans 828 is certainly true that God causes all things to work together for good, for those who love God, and are called according to His purpose, and I think we have to say that includes all of the events that occur up to and including the point of our death, that God will use that for good in our lives, and to draw us closer to Himself, make us more like Him. Do you want to talk about that for a minute? Aren't there challenges as we grow older, as we experience illness? Aren't there challenges, but aren't those also opportunities that God uses to grow in our faith, grow in our obedience? What do you think about that, Neville? Where's our microphone here?

I just think my wife, Lauren, I have been in business for 20 years, and our business has specifically dealt with seniors, and it's really interesting to me and it has been to see how the perpetuation about, it's all about me, continues with certain people, specifically about death, because I'm hearing more and more over the last few years about I have a right to terminate my life, and that tells me distinctly, it's all about me, and it's not about the glory of God, and how God can use your demise process to His glorification, and to those around you, and I see that more and more these days, I see it as a cultural, as a cultural, what's the word I'm looking for? Kind of a shift, or a shift, yeah, absolutely, so I wanted to say about that.

Wayne, don't you, well, my thought is that death and the ravages of disease and the ravages of aging, if you will, make the reality of sin very in our face, up close and personal, and it's a constant reminder that we're creatures, that we're not the creators, we're not the controllers, we're not the wannabe deities that we act like through most of our lives, that we are creatures, beloved creatures in Christ, but creatures, and in fact, that list that you had up there with the different topics, redemption and justification, and next week glorification, and you had death and yellow, as I was looking at that, it occurred to me, death is the only one on that list that will be experienced by every single person ever born on this planet. We do not avoid it. I mean, until the Lord comes to it. And I think death is just a reminder of how awful sin is, because we certainly live in an age that minimizes sin. But we see that the consequences of Adam and Eve, this obeying, were really profound. As you're talking, Sandy, I'm just thinking too that as we become older, and we realize that there are some things that we can't fix and can't solve, then it drives us, it drives us to kind of anger or bitterness, or it drives us to more trust in the Lord, and more dependence on him. Margaret and I have noticed among some of our extended family, for instance, as people have gotten older, they've become more like Christ. And I think of a one or two particularly older faculty members, at Trinity, that I watched as they grew older, and then they retired and then eventually died. And there just was a sweetness about them, a Christ likeness about them, that was a magnification of the good qualities that were there earlier in their life. And we've, oh, I was just thinking of Margaret's mother particularly as well, as she grew older. We were seeing a kindness and a gentleness that was, I think, evidence of Christ working in her life. And I'm actually, I'm seeing some of that in my own parents as well, right now, who are in their 90s? Well, they're 91 and 90. And that's the positive thing. Over here. I have it. Levert? Hi. Well, you know, it says in the Bible that God knew us before we were ever conceived in our mother's womb, and as the egg goes into the womb, and it's very comfortable in there, it really doesn't have any need to come out, but it has to come out into this world, and that becomes us. And as we go through this world, we have to pass through this next stage, which is called death, to go to the next world, whatever that world is to, if we believe. And so to me, it's like a process of, you know, this is how God had a plan, and death should be looked at as if we're in a new birth to the next stage of what God has planned for our life. So everything that happens to us here, as it does in the mother's womb, is going to make that child healthier as it comes out into this world. And as we go through this world, it'll make us healthier as we get to the next world. It seems like it's kind of a neat thing to let happen. Yep. Good. Okay. Good. Well, look, I mean, this is a, what Sandy says, we're all gonna face this. And just the clock is ticking, or it's getting closer, and we can kind of fight against or become angry, or we can say, Lord, I believe, as Romans 8.20 is true, you have good purpose in all of this for me. And I believe I'm going to walk close to you through this, and there's going to be joy in fellowship with you through this, and that you have a good purpose in this. And then that's a really positive way of looking at the next 5, 10, 15, 20, however many years God gives us in this life. And so I'm going to talk more about that in a minute, but the Bible's perspective on aging and death for believers is so much more positive, and in a way wonderful, though death is seen as an enemy, and it's not wonderful. But God being with us through that is so much more positive than unbelievers who are just without God and without hope in this world as Paul says. Well, number four, our experience of death completes our union with Christ. Romans 8.17, if children then heirs, heirs of God, and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may be also be glorified with him. There is more experience of suffering as we grow older, just the things that go wrong that can't get fixed, and the increasing weakness, and you know, last Sunday night, we were going Monday morning going on to Maryland, and for one reason or another, a lot of things had happened during that previous week, and we had graduation everything, and so I didn't get, I was up finishing my grades and finishing getting ready, I didn't get to bed till two in the morning, Monday morning, and we had to get up at 4.30 because we had to leave at 5.30 to get the airplane to get out to Baltimore, et cetera. I used to be able to do that, but let me tell you, I didn't snap back the next day or the next day, I was still doing weird, well, what is that? Okay, so Paul, and that wasn't, I wouldn't call it suffering, and I just saying, I'm realizing that my body doesn't work like I used to, doesn't recover as much, and so

so we suffer with Christ, in whatever way, if we can see, all right Jesus, you went before me, you suffered and died, you prepared the way, you sanctified the way, I walk with you through this, oh my goodness, what a transforming perspective that gives us on all the experience of aging and suffering and eventual death. First Peter 413, but rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed, and I think in that case, we say, well Lord, you're going to bring me through this, and I thank you for it, and I thank you that I'm going to rejoice at the strength you give me, and that you walk with me through this, and you bring me through it, and so I look forward to rejoicing when you return. Number five, our obedience to God is more important than preserving our own lives. Now look, we do not live in a country or a society or a period in history where we're challenged to sacrifice our lives for the sake of our faith, but many Christians have throughout many points in history, and many Christians are at that situation even now, and I hope that never happens in our country. It doesn't look likely that it'll happen, we don't know the future, we don't know the course of events, and we don't know where circumstances might bring us at one point or another, and so for all of that, it is good for us to fix our minds in advance on this perspective. Acts 20, 24 Paul says he's going to Jerusalem, different cities, people are telling me he's going to suffer in Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit is revealing to him, he's going to suffer at Jerusalem, and he says, I don't account my life of any value, Acts 20, 24, nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course, and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. It's like he's gotten this assignment from the Lord, and he read it, and it said, Paul, I want you to testify to me among the Gentiles, every place throughout the Mediterranean world, every place I send you, and Paul says, I'll do it, I want to be faithful. All right, you're leading me to Jerusalem, that's part of the assignment, I'm going there. My only concern is that I finish the responsibility you've given me, I want to be faithful, I want to finish my course, and the ministry that I received from the Lord, that's all he wants to do, and Neville, it's the opposite of what you say, you're seeing kind of in the secular world, it's all about me, I have a right to this ever, Paul doesn't say that, he says, the only thing I want to do is finish ministering for the Lord, finish caring for him, Bob, here you are, I'm not going to say how old you are, but you're not 30 anymore, and you're saying, what can I do for the Lord, and that's the perspective, I think that should be in all our hearts as he opens up opportunities for us, if I can finish my course, just the ministry, whatever God gives me at this point at this time, and I realize not everybody is going to be teaching a class, but there are people you know who need care, there are people in your neighborhood, people in your area of influence, there are people in your extended family, there are people that you know you can pray for, and there are people that you know you can minister by phone, and there are people you know that you can bring a little snack to, and care for, or ask how they're doing, or spend time with them, we all have areas of influence where we can be giving ourselves to others, and we should have this mentality, if only I may finish my course, and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, and so in Acts 21, Paul's visiting the elders at Ephesus, and he says, I don't think I'm going to see you anymore, the Lord's shown me that I'm going to be in prison, and I won't see your face anymore, and they began to weep, and Paul said, what are you doing weeping and breaking my heart? I'm ready not only to be in prison, but even to die in Jerusalem, for the name of the Lord Jesus, his obedience to God was more important than preserving his own life. Once you settle that in your heart, then anything else smaller that the Lord asks for you is not too much. Here again, other passages, Paul, this is the last thing he wrote, second Timothy, it's, I think he'd gone to prison in Rome, he'd gotten out, he'd traveled more, preached the Gospel more areas, then he was put back in prison again, and second Timothy is the last thing he wrote at the end of his life, he says, I'm already being poured out as a drink offering, it's kind of old testament imagery about this drink offering being poured out to the Lord, and the time of my departure has come, and he says, I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Don't you want to be able to say that? Don't you want to be able to say that? Whatever you gave me, Lord, whatever you called me to do, I did it. As you gave me strength for the best of my ability, I've fought the good fight, I've finished the race, I've kept the faith. That's the goal. That's what we want to set for ourselves. If it becomes more challenging as we grow older, as it becomes more difficult as death approaches, oh, we just trust God that he'll give us strength. Revelation 12-11, they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, or they love not their lives even unto death. Our beatings to God is more important than preserving our own lives, and I've heard people say, oh, I read these stories of martyrs, people who went, they were burned at the stake, they were put in prison and tortured, and they died, and I say, oh, I'd never be strong enough for that. You know what? I suppose all those people said that before that time. I bet they thought, oh, who am I? I'm just a little ordinary Christian, but at the moment of need, God gave them strength. If their hearts were right before him, and they continued to break, and he gave them strength and equipped them. So, then, okay, so that's number one. Why do we die? God has purposes in the leading up to the end of our lives. Number two, or B, how should we think of our own death and the death of others? How should we think of this? How should we approach it? Well, our own death, this is just opposite to the world with all its wealth and inventions and technology and medical advances and male clinic, where are you here with me? I know there are things that can't be solved. I saw him bring in refreshments anyway. All right. Okay, yeah. He's generally right, we hear some place. Well, I mean, I say male clinic because it's in this area, but it's kind of the ultimate expression of the greatest medical technology can accomplish, but I've never heard of anybody who's gone to the male clinic and they've given him eternal life. It just doesn't happen. So, what do we think about this? Our own death. Well, we should think of our own death not with fear, but with joy at the prospect of going to be with Christ. Philippians 1, 21 to 23, and again, this is Paul's earlier imprisonment, but at this first imprisonment, he didn't know if he's going to get out or not. But he said, well, whatever happens, it'll turn out for good. So for to me to live is Christ, that means service for Christ, and to die is gain. If I'm to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. God, I'll be able to serve the Lord more. That's great. Yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell, I'm hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ for that is far better. So Paul say, whoa, here I'm in prison. Are they going to put me to death, throw me to the lines? I could go to be with Christ. Whoa, I'd really love that. But you know, I'd like to stay here so I can minister to the churches, care for them, do more of the ministry that God has given to me. I'm hard pressed between the two. He's got two good choices, service for the Lord or dying and go to be with the Lord. And he has the, and he views going to be with the Lord is a very positive thing. Second Corinthians 5, 8, yes, we are of good courage. And we would rather be away from the body, as his body dies and is in the earth, and at home with the Lord. His soul goes to heaven, to be with God, to be with the Lord Jesus. So that's a positive view of death. Revelation 14, 13, I heard a voice from heaven saying, right, this blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Blessed indeed says the Spirit that they may rest from their labors for their deeds follow them. Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. That is, there's a reward. Hebrews 2, 15 talks about the purpose of Christ coming to earth. And it said one aspect of that was to deliver all those who threw fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. That's us. We are delivered from that. The Lord delivered us from this fear of death. So we shouldn't have any fear of death. You know, let's see, several years ago now, we had the attacks on 9-11. And I had a ticket to go from Phoenix to New York City on 9-18, just one week to the week after that. One week to the day right after that. And it had to do with getting some final kind of legal negotiation done with copyright issues for the ESV Bible. And there were four of us going. I was going to go to Chicago, meet three others, and we were going to fly out there. And I thought, well, I've got to take it to go. And it's what the Lord wants me to do. So might as well go. But it is amazing. And that claim that was almost empty. How nervous most of the people were. Just a great fear of death. And drinking too much alcohol and just no peace at all. But as a believer, I just thought, well, if I die, I'd go to be with the Lord. I mean, I didn't take it. I mean, it wasn't. I'd miss Margaret.

So I don't mean that casually. But really, there was a piece about that. And I'm

really, as I mean, I would like to stay around and finish up this ESV study Bible and see it published in October. But yeah, I'd like to go to be with the Lord too. Do you feel that in your own heart?

I think that's the perspective that God wants us to have, not to have this fear of death that is so captivating the world. You want to talk about that for a minute, fear of death. If you believe you're going to be with Jesus, is there still a fear of death element? Yeah. Oh, I forgot your name. What's your name over here? Then hold on. There's a microphone here. I love the way David put it. He said that the way I walked through the valley of the shadow of it, like the truck comes around and runs you over, but the shadow just hits you. Yeah. And the thing struck me this morning when you were talking is about the spirit Adam and Eve died spiritually. And we will never die spiritually. We're going to die physically, but we're going to. And then eventually we'll have a metaphysical body. We'll be raised from the death. Good. We won't die spiritually in cave events. Yeah, good. And that's a good verse in Psalm 232. I walked through the valley of the shadow of death. I will fear no evil. For you are with me, you're rod and your staff, they come through. Anything else on fear of death? Christians not fearing death, Bob. I was going to say Wayne. I've heard it said that person doesn't fear death. They just don't want to be there when it happens.

Well, I don't know. I can't think of anything to say to that. That wasn't a spiritual conversation. I know. It's just a little light-hearted interlude. Go ahead, easy. You know, I don't. I think there's a bit of an issue here and it's not so much the fear of death, but it's typically the pain that you have to go through to get there, or that most normally a company's dying. Yeah. And I don't thank you, EG, because I do not want to minimize that. And that's real. And that's an experience of suffering and it's an experience of a trial and a test thing that we just, you know, we hope it doesn't happen. We trust the Lord for strength to give us grace to go through it. But I wanted to distinguish that from the idea of dying itself, where there's just a deep fear in the world, because they have no idea, just uncertainty. I think Christians not fearing death can be a wonderful testimony to the world that just doesn't know. Okay, back here. Yeah, Todd. I think similar to the pain, the physical pain is, you know, and everybody in here that's apparent understands that as the pain of leaving the people behind, especially a younger child or, you know, what they're going to face, especially in this changing world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Thank you for both of those good, good comments. John, since it's mother's day, I was thinking back to my mom when I lost my brother. Yeah. And her attitude towards his death, which was, I'm going to see him again. Yes. And I, and I thought to when I went through the miracle a couple of years ago, what my thoughts were, and my thoughts were pretty much a positive. One, my days are numbered anyway. Yep. God knows the day I'm going to leave this earth. And there are days when I thought, well, I get to go home. Yep. But you want to stay here for your family, for your church, and for whatever. Yep. Yeah. And it's just, I have no fear of it. That's what, John. Thank you. That is so, because you, I mean, you looked at Square in the eye with that extremely advanced cancer. And we're so thankful. Yeah. Good. Thanks for that. So we face the idea of our own death, not with here, but with joy, at prospect, we're going to be with Christ. But then kind of related to what John just said a minute ago about his brother, the death of Christian friends and relatives. There is genuine sorrow, but is sorrow mixed with joy. And we see this pattern, a number of cases in the New Testament. For instance, in Acts 8.2, there was a story of Stephen who was this young preacher that had great effectiveness in bearing witness to the resurrection of Christ. And just many, many, many people were coming to Christ. No one could withstand the wisdom with which he spoke. And the, of course, he was Jewish and all the Jerusalem church was Jewish, but there were, there was another contingent of Jews there, Jewish leaders and Jewish, others not leaders with them. And they were enraged at this and they were opposed to what he said. And finally, a bunch of them took them kind of like a mob action, dragged him out and surrounded him a street and began to throw stones at him to stone him to death. And as he was dying, he cried out and said, Lord Jesus received my spirit. And he said, I see the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. I mean, people were looking on at just this very evident testimony of the fact that he was going right to heaven. Well, then what was the response of the believers, including the apostles who had walked with Jesus for those three years? What was the response of those believers when Stephen died? Look at this, Acts 8.2, devout men buried Stephen and made great lamentation over him. They were weeping, lamenting. They were sorrowful, sorrowful that he had been stoned, sorrowful about the suffering he had gone through, and sorrowful because they missed him. He died. And so this is an example of in the midst of the greatest measure of faith and the expansion of the church and the presence of the apostles themselves still great sorrow at the death of a loved one. I think that tells us it's not wrong to grieve. It's not wrong to grieve and to grieve deeply when we feel sadness at the death of a loved one who is going to be with the Lord. They knew, they knew he was in heaven. They'd seen with their own eyes Jesus has sent up into heaven. Some of them probably seen Stephen being stoned and saying, Lord Jesus received my spirit, but they made great lamentation over him. First, this alone is 413. Paul says, we don't want you to be uninformed brothers about those who are asleep. That means who have died. That you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. He doesn't say that you may not grieve, but he says that you may not grieve in the same way as others do who have no hope. They grieve with a bitterness that knows no joy. We grieve with a grief that's mixed with joy that our loved ones have gone to be with the Lord. So it's a mixed, it's a mixed thing. Psalm 116, verse 15, an Old Testament verse on this precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. That is, the Lord himself draws believers to himself, takes them to himself, brings them back into close fellowship with himself, and it's precious to him even though he recognizes and understands the sorrow that we feel as well. So the sorrow mixed with joy. I think, I think also that what should I say? The amount of sorrow and joy, the mixture of sorrow and joy might vary according to the circumstance. That is, I remember when my grandmother was very, very old and weak and she was just praying to go to be with the Lord. We felt sorrow at her funeral and missed her, but but we felt joy that in a way the Lord had answered her prayer to take her to heaven. And yet many of you walked with us through that very difficult time three years ago when our daughter-in-law Rachel just died suddenly in an auto accident. And the amount of sorrow we felt then was, it wasn't that there was no joy that she was in heaven, but it was a great, great proportion of sorrow that seemed overwhelming for days and sometimes weeks after that. And my making sense in saying this, sometimes people have gone through a long struggle with much suffering and they long to be released from that and to be in the Lord's presence. We can be thankful that there are released, though surely we will still feel sorrow at the loss of fellowship. So that proportion of joy and sorrow may vary according to the circumstance. I hope it's right to say that. I hope I'm not, but I think that is what happens in the ordinary course of life. Anybody want to just say something more about it? Okay. Okay, let's go on. Then what about the death of unbelievers? How should we think of the death of unbelievers? We also, in this case, feel sorrow, but it is not mixed with the joy of assurance of salvation. And so this is a very much more difficult situation. Paul talks about, now this isn't really about death, but he's talking about how he's thinking about his Jewish kinsmen who have rejected Christ. He says in Romans 9, 1 and 2, I'm speaking the truth in Christ. I'm not lying. My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. I could wish that I myself were cursed. It doesn't quite say that would be kind of an unusual Greek construction saying I could almost wish that I were cursed and cut off from Christ so much as he loved them. And cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, they have a zeal for God. It's not according to knowledge. It goes on to say. And so there's a sorrow but not mixed with that joy of assurance that they're in heaven, which is such a comfort at the time of sorrow. And so this is a difficult situation for us. I think it's a situation in which also the scripture gives us guidance. I want to say this carefully, but when an unbeliever has died, we often do not have absolute certainty that the person has persisted in refusal to trust Christ all the way to the point of death. Now maybe we do, maybe we were with the person at the point of death, but often we weren't. Often we were distant and we may not have been there for the last few hours or days. The knowledge of one's impending death will often bring about genuine heart searching on the part of the dying person. And so I want to say that with caution, but it is true that at the end of life, sometimes people come to the point where they remember and they've been thinking about a Billy Graham message that they've seen on TV or a gospel message they've heard and they have not cried out to Christ for forgiveness, but they do sometimes near the end of life. And that may be the case. Nevertheless, after a non-Christian has died, I think it would be wrong to indicate to others that we think that the person has gone to heaven. This would give misleading information and false assurance and diminish the urgency for those remaining to trust in Christ. So what do we do then? Well, it's often helpful to recall the good qualities that you remember about the person's life in any case. And we have here the example of David when he heard about the death of Saul. Now, I said a couple weeks ago, I'm not sure what the situation was, spiritually was solved, but Saul certainly did not have an admirable record of conduct in the last several years of his life. He threw a spirit, David, to try to kill him. He pursued David again and again, trying to kill him, put him to death. Though David had done nothing wrong, it was only seeking his good. He consulted a medium or a witch, and he was always just thinking about himself, trying to kill David time after time. But when he died, what does David do? He utters this lament in 2 Samuel 1 that talks about the good things in Saul's life. Isn't this interesting? 2 Samuel 1 19 to 25, your glory, oh Israel is slain on your high places, how the mighty have fallen, Saul and Jonathan, they were swifter than eagles, they were stronger than lions. Your daughters of Israel weep over Saul who clothe you luxuriously in scarlet, who put ornaments of gold upon your apparel, how the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle. So David doesn't turn to say how evil Saul was to try to kill him. He just says it's a time of mourning for any mentions, the good qualities that Saul has, that Saul had shown. And you know, when you go to a funeral for unbelievers, that is often what people are doing anyway, aren't they? They're talking about the person's kindness or the person's sense of humor and other good things. And I think that's appropriate that we recall and think of as examples the things that have happened in unbelievers lives. Okay, I'm going to go on, what happens when people die? What actually happens? Well, the souls of believers go immediately into the presence of God. Our bodies remain on the earth and are buried in the ground. But our souls go immediately into God's presence. Paul says we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. He wants to depart and be with Christ. It means go to heaven. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise. That's today though the thief's body died and hung on the cross. And so the Bible does not teach the doctrine of purgatory and we have to respectfully differ here with our Roman Catholic friends. In Roman Catholic teaching purgatory is the place where the souls of believers go to be further purified from sin until they're ready to be admitted to heaven. The sufferings of purgatory are given to God in substitute for the punishment for sins that believers should have received in time but did not. Now the Catholic church supports this not from what we accept as canonical scripture, but in the writings of the apocrypha those things between books between the old and New Testament that we talked about a long time ago, but that the Roman Catholic church accepts this scripture. The Jewish people at the time of the New Testament did not. Jesus and the Apostles did not quote the apocryphae scripture even though they quoted the our Old Testament over 295 times. And the Roman Catholic church didn't be clearly apocryphal official to be to be scripture until I think 1547. But it does take the apocryphae scripture and the passage that gets this teaching from is in 2nd Maccabees, a history of the story of the Maccabeean family and their rebellion against the Greek empires and kingdoms that had been ruling them. And so after one battle it talks about Judas Maccabeeus who was the leader of the Maccabeean family at that time. I was going to track down the date of this. This is 2nd century BC approximately. On the next day Judas and his men went back to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen. What did they find? Under these people who had fallen in battle, under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia which the law forbids the Jews to wear and it became clear to all this was why these men had fallen. They were keeping secret idols in their clothing. And so they turned to prayer, beceaching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly bought it out. So they're praying for forgiveness of sins for people who have died. And the noble Judas also took up a collection of men by men to the amount of 2,000 droplets of silver sent to church Roslem to provide for a sin offering. Whoa! He's taking money to send to the temple for a sin offering and doing this he acted very well and honorably taking account of the resurrection. If he'd not been expecting that they would rise again it would have been foolish to pray for the dead. I'm kind of skipping over here to go quickly. But if he was looking to the splitted reward laid up for those who fall asleep it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement the Greek is exelosmos propitiation. He made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. So here we have prayers for forgiveness of sins of already people who have died, prayer for the dead and actually money given to help them along in that sin offering. Yeah, if that were part of the Bible that would support the doctor praying for people to be forgiven after they've died and even giving money for offerings for that. And the Roman Catholic Church has developed that doctrine and does believe in the doctrine of purgatory. We have to say this contradicts what the Bible says about going dying and going to be with the Lord. It contradicts what the Bible says about all the propitiation for our sin being made by Christ, not by people making offerings or prayers in this life. It's just a whole different view and we just don't accept it as scripture but there it is. They look at some other passages. Matthew 1232 whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven, whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or in the age to come and Roman Catholic interpreters will say well if it says people will not be forgiven who sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age to come and that means that maybe some people will be forgiven in the age to come and my response is to take a verse that says something is not going to happen to argue that it is going to happen doesn't seem to me a good use of the verse. It just says it won't happen that doesn't mean it might happen and again talking about rewards if anyone's work is burned up he'll suffer loss though he himself will be saved but only as through fire or Paul's talking about the person's works being burned up not the person being burned or suffering. So again I think that in 1 Corinthians 315 that's not a good passage to support purgatory. You've read that for your whole life and you haven't thought oh there's purgatory so I think those are weak evidences and I don't agree with that. The next thing is the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of soul sleep and this is another kind of idea that a few people have held in the history of the church. The idea that when you die you don't go into heaven to be with the Lord you go to state of unconscious existence and the next thing you'll know is Christ returning and raising you to return a life and it's supported from these verses that talk about death as sleeping. Jesus says our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep or 1 Corinthians 156 he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time most of whom are alive though some have fallen asleep but I think the right understanding of those verses is they use sleep just as a metaphor for death those other verses about today you'll be with me in paradise I want to be part and be with Christ that's far better those are very clear on saying that when we die we go immediately to God's presence you know see what happened was we have a kind of casual talking about these earlier topics and then I'm looking at the clock and I'm thinking I don't want this to carry over next week so I'm going on to try to finish the outline of you bear with me okay see did Old Testament believers enter immediately into God's presence yes I think so here a couple examples Genesis 524 Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him I think he went to be with the Lord second Kings 2 11 Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven looks like God is taking him up to heaven David says I'll dwell in the house of the Lord forever I think he's looking for continual fellowship with the Lord so I think yes Old Testament believers entered immediately into heaven and enjoyed fellowship with God upon their death though there isn't a lot of testimony to that there's something point D where am I in the outline we shouldn't should we pray for the dead no we shouldn't pray for the dead no to pray for the dead is simply to pray for something that God has told us has already been decided rather heavenly rewards for believers or eternal punishment for unbelievers to pray for the dead would encourage false hope that the destinies of people might be changed after they die I mean why do we pray for the dead if they're going to be with Christ well what do they need and if they haven't gone to be with Christ nothing's going to change no matter how much you pray it's not going to change the idea of praying for the dead really is floating around in the atmosphere out in our culture I think as a kind of a leftover from the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory they do pray for the dead and give offerings to the dead and ask for masses to be said for the dead in order that they could be released from purgatory but if we don't believe that then surely we shouldn't be praying for those who have died but what happens when people die number two the souls of unbelievers go immediately to eternal punishment I'm going to skip just to Hebrews 927 it is appointed for man to die once and after that comes judgment and there are some other passages like that as well but that brings me to the end of the outline no that lets me have oh we have four or five minutes left so good Pammy hold on here here we go occasionally when I'm having my prayer time with the Lord I'll just I'll say to him and Lord would you please tell my dad high and that I miss him and that I look forward to seeing him again and is that wrong to do I don't ever talk to my dad in prayer but I yeah but just and I you know I've maybe done that four or five times in the last 10 years but you know just when I'm kind of overwhelmed with missing him or or whatever I'll just say I'll talk to the Lord about it and then I'll just say would you just tell my dad high for me and be at the gate when I get there because I can't wait to see him too is that wrong and you can speak true to me Wayne teach me I want to know

I think you can talk to the Lord about anything can't you and that's the desire of your heart I don't see anything wrong with that Pammy I haven't thought about it before but my lens think you're talking to Jesus I want to be really careful that we not come to the point of praying to the dad or praying to the saints or to those who have died and there's this instance where Saul asked this medium to conjure up Samuel and he lost his kingdom because of it in first Samuel so I don't want to go that way but um there have been times when something has happened in a ministry situation that particularly was taught to me by one of my professors at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia he's he's gone to be with the Lord now and I've just kind of smiled and thought I wonder if he's watching and seeing me teach that or it was taught to me by another pastor that that was was a great help in my life previously and I just kind of I looked at a situation and I just kind of had this big smile I think I wonder if he's just watching this but I haven't ever said hey watching this no so I haven't gone to that that point and I want to be really cautious about that but I don't without having thought about this before my my first reaction is I can't see anything wrong with that then okay I just wanted to comment about the purgatory yeah and in second macabees you have to hold a little closer it being in second macabees yes yes but isn't it in the Catholic Bible it is in the Catholic Bible and that's why they believe it yeah well macabees is part of this apocryphal yes it is it is and those are those books which did not warrant getting into the Protestant Bible right yeah so how then did it get into the Catholic Bible yeah it kind of was a real quick answer those the Jewish people kept a lot of their history after malachi after the old testament ended they kept writing down their history but they didn't they themselves did not count it the like the Bible or the words of God or book of the covenant they just counted as their history but I think the key was in 404 AD when Jerome prepared the Latin Vulgate translation under the direction of the Pope he included these books after the Old Testament and so when everybody speaking Latin it was kind of in their Bibles anyway and then it got more and more incorporated and then after the Reformation came along and Martin Luther was objecting to purgatory and this idea you can earn your salvation well they found support for it in the books of the macabees and other things in the apocrypha and so I think that explains a lot of why the Roman Catholic Church said well we're going to count this as scripture and is it true about the book of Judith also the book of Judith yeah that's part of it too yeah I wanted to make one comment with regard to being at the funeral of non-believers yeah I have been to many funeral I have never been to a funeral where the relatives did not assume that their loved one was not in heaven yeah yeah they will refer to them as looking down at us so I don't think that these people who we say are not saved actually believe that they are going to help yeah I understand that Rose and I think that my responsibility and we've been to many funerals of well a number of funerals where people didn't seem to be a believer our responsibility just to be there and be kind I'm not I'm not called upon to I'm not called upon to correct anybody's wrong ideas but the other thing that often there is opportunity to do is to point to the words of Jesus where he says I am the resurrection of the life he who believes in me though he were dead yet shall he live that's in John 11 and those words are really appropriate at that time I think too okay good thanks yeah over here oh yep what's your name my name is John John a question that I thought about a couple of years ago I heard her pastor by the name of Bob Mumford teach how do I die as a Christian how do I die what do I do and when I watched my dad die a couple years ago it was kind of neat to be able to speak scripture to him yeah and talk about that but when I'd come to me what happens to me practically for five years I was involved with the financial counseling ministry along with David Margin a couple of others in here and you teach people how to budget and so forth but what happens when you get to the end of life what happens to your loved ones yeah you have healthcare power of attorney all that stuff yeah affects everybody that's left and can help ease through the process of death yeah good so the scripture doesn't specifically say how we die it talks about what to do when we're born what to do how to live relate to your spouse and your kids yeah but how do I die as a Christian well what you say is really helpful because you know if we don't have fear of death then we don't have to avoid talking about it honestly but we can make wise plans and I think that's a really good application too so thank you for that okay and yeah and I'm just curious who wrote the apocrypha and I've never heard of the book of Judith who wrote them Jewish people kind of recording the way God was working in their history from about 425 or 435 BC when hey guys accurate when Malachi came to an end and after Esther came to an end those last books in the Old Testament then the there were rabbis and they were recording things and they were scribes and they were priests and they were recording what was happening to the Jewish people in those centuries but uniformly and I've got some evidence for this in chapter 3 of my systematic theology where I talk about the canon uniformly those Jewish people thought that the Holy Spirit inspiring prophecy had come to an end with Malachi and Josephus the Jewish historian writing in 95 AD reflecting mainstream Judaism said from the end of Esther basically he says from the time of Hashawaris until the present time the complete record has been kept but it has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier writings that's in his against Appian 141 it's kind of a famous citation and so the Jewish people didn't count it as scripture Jesus never quoted as scripture the New Testament never quoted as scripture though it was known and so I don't think we should count it as scripture either okay well I'm gonna have to quit because everybody hasn't heard Darryl has to go here Darryl so let's try this I learned from this my Jesus I love the I know that my Debbie Nevin's gave me a little while ago something I've been using on these hymns a book called then sings my soul actually Debbie and Rick gave it to me but I think it was Debbie did you pick it out yes Rick had something to do with thing for it I think and then sings my soul 300 the word greatest hymn stories and I found out that William Featherstone wrote my Jesus I love the I know that my when he was 16 years old lived in Canada and the book says little little male little else is known about him he died when he was 26 let's sing this if you want to it's a good I think I good him see you next week and I just want to say once again Garth and Sandy your last Sunday with us right so wish you goodbye and the Lord be with you and we're gonna miss you a lot okay see you all next week