I mean, and we'll get into this here. Father, thank you for loving us the way you love us. Thank you that you will love us to the uttermost, to the very end, and you will love us for all eternity. And the romance, the love affair which, because of this fall and world, because of our own confusion, and because of the disorder in our souls, the love affair that we only get glimpses of now, we will see and enjoy in all of its fullness there. But you know, O Lord, how desperately we need to have tastes of that romance, of that love affair, of those glories. I pray that even in this time, as we talk about various things, that there might be some tastes for us here. And always we ask that it would be your good pleasure, it would be your chief delight when we gather for worship to come and to visit your people. But Lord, you show up at wild and unexpected times to give encouragement to your people. And we ask that this would be one of many, many times when you do that. And we ask it in Jesus name. Amen. You know, we sang this hymn this morning, the opening hymn, for those of you who haven't been at worship yet, I'd encourage you to kind of keep your eyes open for it. Just a fabulous, fabulous hymn about the ministry of the Spirit. And just thinking about God showing up at unexpected times, I think there are times when we sort of expect that God will show up, but then there are times when He shows up in surprising, very personal ways. And I don't know how you can for these things except that the Spirit is who He is. And He does what He does. And you just kind of get out of the way. And as a point at which you just say, okay, it's your gig, you know, you do what you do. But I mean singing that hymn this morning for me was like dying and going to heaven. It was. It was, it was an epiphany. It was glorious, especially that second verse that makes the connection between what the Spirit of God did in creation, in taking this primordial stuff, you know, the unformed lump of clay and creating out of it a thing of beauty. And the connection that there is between that and what the Spirit does in the work of recreation, in redemption, in refashioning and reshaping us, hovering over the chaos of our souls and producing out of our souls something of exquisite beauty. I tell you, I like stuff like that. I just think that's wonderful. Are we on back there? Anybody know how to turn that thing on? That's, we are, oh good. Hello out there in audio land. We are rolling. Okay. Let me, let me tell you what we're going to do this week and next week, as usually happens, I've gotten a bit behind and we have two weeks left and we're going to take the last three weeks, actually, having talked about how the church originates and what the church is, we're going to take some time to talk about what the church does. And we're going to have to condense that a little bit. And what I'd like to do this morning is use this time as a time to, to talk with you. For some of you, this will be a rehearsal of things you've already heard. For some of you, it may be, it may be new, even though it may be you've been around here, you've never really heard me talk about this. But what I'd like to do is talk about about the, what I guess you could call the organizing principles, the things around which this church exists. And these things are really, they really do reflect what it is that the church is to do, you know, what it is that the church is to be about, and that the church, again, in some just theoretical sense, but the church very specifically, this particular church, I'm convinced that these are the things that we're to be about. And as we do that, I'd really like for you to keep in mind that there is this, this hub, this thing that is at the center of all of it, the heart of everything, not perfectly expressed or executed. I don't mean to suggest that, and I don't mean to suggest that this is unusual or unique. But the heart of this whole deal is the gospel. If there is an organizing principle out of which all of the other principles emanate, or from which they radiate, it is the gospel. And what I would say to you, to this particular group of people, is that the gospel is just as much an organizing principle today as it was for you on the first day of your Christian lives. Our experiences are different. All right, I came to Christ at 20 years of age. It's quite probable just sort of scanning the group here. It's quite probable that there are some of you whose experience with Christ is much different from mine. I pray for each of my girls that they will not have an experience like I had. My prayer for my children is that there will never be a day, never be a time when they didn't know that Jesus was Lord of the Lord of glory, and when they didn't know that he was their Savior. I John the Baptist grew up that way. John the Baptist was regenerated in his mother's womb. Regeneration is this mysterious and wonderful work of the Holy Spirit by which the basic disposition of a person's soul is changed, and blind eyes are made to see, and deaf ears are made to hear, and it's cold heart of stone, beats, and follows after Christ. And I hope and pray and have good reason to think that the Lord did that work in my daughter's lives pretty early in their lives. Now, with each of us, there's a sense in which the jury is out on all of us, right? But that's my hope and my prayer, and I have good reason to think that that work has been done, in the lives of my three children. I can't take credit for that. Barb can't take credit for that. We're not smart enough. We're not good enough. We're not parents enough. For that, it is the gracious, merciful kind intervention of Almighty God that changes the disposition of a person's soul. And again, makes blind eyes to see, and deaf ears to hear, and a cold, dead heart of stone to beat after the Lord Jesus. So our experiences can differ, and there can be those who, while they grow in their understanding of what that is all about, can't look back on the course of their lives and say, you know, I just know I've always loved Jesus. Sorry, you know, there are others like me who were converted later in life, growing up in a church where the gospel wasn't preached, that line again from Margaret Clarkson's hymn, thrusting through with sense of sin. Did you get that, those of you were there? Man, what a great line. That's what the Spirit does, and that's what the Spirit did in my life. When I was 20 years of age, made me aware of my sin and my need, and made me aware of what Christ had done, and so I embraced it. But my point is, and every story is a story, right? I mean, there's no, it's like in the NBA, you know, they've got the top 50 players of all that, there are no top 50 stories in the kingdom of God. Every one of them is a miracle of divine grace and intervention, right? Every one of them. But my point here is that the gospel I needed then is the gospel that I need now. There are some ways in which I am different, and there are some ways in which I am the same, and there are some things that I will want for myself for all eternity, and what I will want for myself is a vision of Christ and the sufficiency of His work and the glory of His work, because as I think about who He is and what He has done for me, it makes my heart glad. It causes a rejoicing in my soul. It is the gospel that causes people to sing. It's the gospel that's in Peter's mind when he talks about the church, singing the praises of Him who has called them from darkness into His marvelous light, right? The gospel is the organizing principle, and basically the gospel is that I am a sinner and I have a Savior. And the grace that I needed, the first moment of my Christian life is the grace that I need now, and the grace that Christ was pleased to give me the first moment of my Christian life is the grace that Christ is pleased to give me now, and will be pleased to give me throughout the course of my life. He takes pleasure in pouring out His grace upon His people, and I'll tell you if there's one thing that I long for, we don't express it perfectly, this is an imperfect church, because there are imperfect people here, but if there is one thing that I long for, I long for the gospel to be here, for the gospel to be here, for people to know who they are as sinners and need of a Savior, and for Christ to dwell in the midst of His people, constantly, constantly by His Spirit, presenting Himself, making Himself in the sufficiency of His work real to His people. I really, really want for St. Paul's to be a church where there is a love affair that goes on between these people in Jesus. You know, I prayed about in the opening prayer where there is a romance that's here, where there is a groom and there is a bride, where there is a lover and there is the beloved, and there is just flat, a mutual delight which is experienced between a group of people and Christ and Christ and that people. If God would be pleased to visit us in such a way that some of that reality is communicated over the course of our days together, I will die a happy man because we need it and the world desperately needs it. The world needs to see Christ having a love affair with His people, His people having a love affair with Christ, delighting in one another, glorying in one another, marveling the people at the greatness of Christ's grace and work in their behalf. So the gospel is the organizing principle. I'm a sinner, I need a Savior. Another way to put it is the way that Jack Miller used to put it. Jack, as he died on Easter Sunday a year ago, it's going to be with the Lord, lucky stiff, no pun intended. That slipped out before I, that was pretty foul wasn't it. I think he would, yeah. And he's probably, he probably doesn't even care what I'm saying about it. But as Jack would say, the gospel is essentially two things. You're more sinful than you want to believe and you're more loved than you can possibly imagine. That's the gospel. You're more sinful than you want to believe but you're more loved than you can possibly imagine. That's one way to summarize the gospel and that's, that's the organizing principle. Now what emanates or radiates out from that are these four things and the first of them is worship.
And there is a certain, there is a certain interconnectedness about these things but there's a certain order to them as well. There's a certain, certain logical order, I guess, or connection. But, but the first thing is worship. Worship, I believe is the highest activity of our lives.
And you all have had this experience. I know I was, we were talking about this at breakfast yesterday, morning. You all have had those moments when the gospel is just, it's just clear, you know, when the love of Jesus for you, it's like the curtain is torn and the veil is pulled back and the love of Jesus for you is like a flood, like this overwhelming flood. I mean, I, I could point to that not, I want more of them. There haven't been that many but there have been a few times when the love of Christ for me staggers me. One occasion was when I was very, very young as a Christian and I was reading, you know, the first part of Paul's letter to the Ephesians and where Paul talks about about being blessed in heaven or having all of the blessedness of heaven in Christ and he goes on to talk about election and this mysterious doctrine of God having chosen people and predestined them to become adopted as sons and to be holy and blameless before him in love and about how he works all the things in the world after the counsel of his own will. You know, it's like I can't understand this, my brain's too small but at a particular moment as I was reflecting upon this idea of election asking the question, you know, why does God do it this way or what's going on or why not this person or why? It's like the heavens were pulled apart and it became clear to me that what God was saying to me as an individual was, you're the object of my affection. I know there's mystery in this but don't you see what I'm saying to you is you are the object of my affection. You are the one upon who might have set my affection before the foundation of the world that you might be my son, my precious possession. And sitting in my dormitory room in college, I thought this was one of those moments where I was overwhelmed by my understanding that God for reasons I do not understand and cannot begin, I don't think to understand. God had set me apart for himself that he might possess me and that I might possess him. And I mean I just melted. I sat in my dormitory room and you know no longer was it the question why not somebody else the question was why me why me and the overwhelming greatness of the love of God for me just it was one of those moments. What is the response of a person and you've had those experiences? What is it that you want to do when the love of Christ for you is suddenly made made clear and made manifest? What's the impulse of your heart and your soul? It's to praise God, it's to give thanks, it's to be engaged in worship. You see a love affair is mutual delight. It's romance. It's speaking to one another. That's what's you know that's what was so cool about about infatuation initially in a relationship you know. He just kind of wanted to be together all the time and talk to each other and communicate with each other. You know that's what this is all about. The Gospel produces praise in the hearts of people. It moves people to worship and you know this is Pentecost and what we want what we need is for the Spirit to come down and make us cause us to see the riches of the grace of God and Jesus Christ so that our worship might be this overflow of gratitude to God right so that worship becomes the natural response of people to the greatness of God's grace. Read the revelation you know what the revelation is it's a worship service read it I mean you know all over the place there's these little snapshots of people singing and praising and gathered around the throne and celebrating the Lamb and stuff it's it's it's it's looking this way into the heavenly places to see to see the myriads upon myriads of angels around the throne to see the saints gathered at the throne at the feet of Jesus praising him and adoring him if worship I don't want to be too tough on you but if you don't like worship you're not gonna like heaven that's just you know because that's what it is it's worship it's praising and adoring and singing glory you know and and that future reality is a present thing for us and this is something I want to I want to underscore if you look at Hebrews 12 begin at verse 18 actually I've got verse 22 in the in the outline but this is this is stunning stunning language the the writer of this letter is clearly writing to to Jews who have a real understanding of of their old testaments and the images and the stories and all that kind of thing and what he's doing here is contrasting what happened at Sinai right remember what happened at Sinai the people gathered at Sinai and the glory cloud came down and there were trumpets and the earth was shaking you know and and it was just wild time and Moses was up there you know in the midst of all of that woo but look at what the writer says you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire and to blackness and darkness and tempest and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore but Sinai was a terrifying experience for people and and really honestly what God wanted to communicate among other things to Israel was just you don't mess with the Holy One of Israel you don't trifle with the Holy One of Israel okay he did that again in the in the book of Acts in chapter 5 with Ananias and Sephira you know here here the God people are getting converted left and right and this glorious gospel of grace has been communicated to people from from media and from sireen and from all these places and and somebody somebody thinks that God is somebody who can be manipulated and that was that was Ananias and Sephira and God made it very clear very early on in the life of the church that you don't mess with the Holy One of Israel you don't trifle with the Holy God and you don't trifle with holy things and that's a message that is that we've talked about that it's present throughout the book of well throughout the Bible but look at the contrast here the people ask that the word should not be spoken to them anymore who was doing the speaking great great connections here between between God who's doing the speaking speaking the word to Moses and Moses then taking that word and uttering it speaking it to the people that's the prophetic word that's what the prophet does that's what the preacher does right and the people say we can't take this we don't want to hear this anymore for they could not endure what was commanded and if so much as a beast touches the mountain it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow and so terrifying was the site that Moses said I am exceedingly afraid and trembling but verse 24 or 22 you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem to an innumerable company of angels to the general assembly and church of the first born who are registered in heaven to God the judge of all to the spirits of just men made perfect to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling this speaks better things than that available you see Jesus doesn't say your goal or the writer doesn't say you're going to come to this Mount Zion to this new Jerusalem he says you have come you you now are connected to this heavenly Jerusalem you have come to the spirits of just men made perfect you have come to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and there's a clear contrast here while the holiness and the majesty of God is never to be shunted off and hidden in a corner what is here is Jesus the mediator of the perfect and final covenant who gives us access into the very presence of God who gives us approach we don't have to stay off the mountain anymore we don't have to be afraid of the mountain we don't have to be afraid that judgment is going to fall we can go up into the mountain into the glory cloud into the very presence of God and he's saying it isn't just that you can do this this is you have done this this is what has been done right and and worship is an expression of that reality worship is us going up into heaven those there are two metaphors that that I that I use frequently when we talk about this worship is one us going up into heaven okay if you've not listened I did this tape about three years ago if you've not heard the tape that I did on worship which walks through the order of the service you ought to call the office and get a copy of it do you know why we do a procession on him is it just because every Presbyterian Church has always done that we do a procession on him we have the choir process to symbolize the idea that the people of God are going up into the mountain the choir singing the praises of God as as it processes in the midst of the congregation is symbolic of the people of God going up into the midst of the heavenly assembly surrounded by the angels you know I mean if if we could do it the way I'd like to do it I'd like to have a building big enough that that there was an anti-room off of the place where we worship right and we that's where we'd gather we'd gather out there we gather in the anti-room the the room outside the place of worship and the call to worship would be spoken to the congregation there the opening sentences would be spoken there and then we would sing a processional hymn and we would walk out of that room into the place which is symbolic of this heavenly meeting between God and his people if we could complete the symbolism that'd be the great thing to do but it's just too expensive to do stuff like that you know so you'd you have it symbolized in another way that's why we do this stuff right so worship worship is the overflow of full hearts and and it is a heavenly thing it is the glory of God coming down it is the people of God going up into glory you know I don't know it my knees get kind of rubbery when I sometimes when I think about this what what it is the transpires in that room over there when we gather for worship so it is it is going up in design we can go up onto the mountain we don't have to stay away from the mountain but we have access into the presence of God and God is not at all reluctant not at all reluctant to come and meet with his people he loves his bride and he wants to be there he wants to be there now why do we do what we do in worship what is it that governs our thinking about worship this is a a point that lots of ink has been spilled over and let me just let me just say to you the first first of all that we make this distinction between the elements of worship the things that should be present in worship and the circumstances which govern how the elements might be implemented or might be arranged or ordered all right and without you know without giving you a lengthy bibliography in fact you could help me with this the scriptures both by example and by command not by command alone but both by example and by command tell us what it is that ought to be present in our worship okay and the kinds of things that are present in our worship are and ought to be ah that's an important that's an important point when do our announcements occur just to set me up right right when do announcements the announcements occur technically before the service of worship that's that's by design okay that's it's family business it's important business the things that do need to be said people need to be welcome people need to be greeted but it's family business it's horizontal stuff what's before us is this incredible vertical thing okay so we deal with the family business and then we get about the real business that were to be about for the for the day which is to be in the presence of the king okay the bride together with the with the groom all right thank you Matt okay reading and preaching of the word what else prayer sacraments songs hymns spiritual songs okay what else receiving of gifts then addiction
yeah those are those are specific kinds of prayers I guess but but you remember remember when God told Moses tell Aaron to bless the people in this way that the people of God are to be blessed there to be reminded of the blessing of God upon them right you know again that's another thing if if if we didn't have time constraints um the the the wonderful way really the wonderful way to go about blessing the people would be to walk through the whole assembly and and do this made a Lord blunt you know putting your hands on people's shoulders and on their heads made a Lord bless you will keep you made a Lord make his face to shine upon you that's why I raised my hands you know which by the way which by the way is commanded in scripture so if silence yeah sure yeah that's a that's a that's a fact okay we'll put praise on here receiving of gifts yeah yeah these are these are subsumed under but you've got it okay you've got the basic list these are the kinds of things that go on in worship yes is there a hand from the scriptures now now what now we have this document which is sort of the rules of operation for the denomination it's called the Book of Church Order if you want some interesting lead reading that'll put you to sleep at night it's really as good as a sedative it'll really just kind of knock you out yeah but there's a section of that there's a section of that which is called the directory for worship and in the directory for worship the things that that we understand to be required of us to be present in based on the teaching of scripture the things that we understand to be required of us in our services of worship are enumerated there and there are these things and if it's chapter 56 or seven or eight something like that
mm-hmm right right I think so I think so I think it's proof text I think I think it is okay so now those are the elements the circumstances are the particular arrangement of these things and and the circumstances of worship are left to us to determine based on where we live and when we live and what's available to us and that sort of thing now sometimes there is disagreement about what whether something is a circumstance or an element that's where this battle put one of the points at which this battle sort of rages but the circumstances has that that has to do with whether he indoors or outdoors I mean we're not a you know we're not an oppressed church we don't have to go out into the woods we can meet in buildings we can build buildings we can we can use different architectural forms to give expression to things that we think and believe and feel about the nature of the church and the nature of worship okay those are circumstances and the particular ordering of of things that that also was left to us why do we do communion the way we do communion we do communion the way we do communion for a number of reasons um not the least of which is I love doing it that way and uh and before we had a session and before anybody could vote about how we were going to do it we started doing it that way unfortunately everybody got sold on the idea pretty much everybody but there's another reason what a far more important reason and it's a pastoral reason we say that we're covenantal we say we believe that God when he gathers a person to himself gathers not only that person but sons and daughters and one of the things we want to communicate to our people is that we really believe this covenant theology stuff we really believe that families are covenant units and so we ask people to come down for communion and bring their children so that we as elders and pastors can pray for their children and give expression to to this this covenantal idea another thing that drives that is the fact that we're scattered to the four wins here at St. Paul's and what and what communion allows us to do as pastors and elders is minister to people that we don't see during the week we can pray for folks we try to stay on top of circumstances we try to know when people are sick or pregnant or in need and that kind of thing and people will pray the elders will pray for people and for their particular needs see there are some there are some cultural realities that drive how we do the things that we do as well as as well as the the principle or mandated things all right so but but worship then it is the first of these things and is the highest activity in which a group of people can be engaged okay and you know what we're doing at St. Paul's isn't done other places can't be done other places for various reasons but what we're doing here is what we really do believe is giving expression to the reality of the gospel the nature of our life together as a as a community of people yeah you have anything in particular in mind
well we've we I mean you have to look obviously you have to look at the Bible and try to determine whether or not what is being suggested is consistent or if there's if there is precedent for it in what what you know what is said in the scripture about worship the nature of worship and the things that seem to be present in Israelite worship and the things that seem to be present in new testing of worship right and I would say that is not an element of worship there's no precedent for it
not any organized worship of the people of God I mean it's you know people disagree um the other thing about about Satan I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't raise their hands the people shouldn't you know sometimes yeah I there I got to say there are sometimes in a worship service right well almost feel like I have to sit down if we're singing in him because it's just does that ever happen to you you just you think I can't stand up I've got to sit down so so bodily response in the context of worship is almost something that you could expect now people need you know they need to be conscious of where they are there there I don't think there is to be a lawlessness you know a kind of a an anarchy in our responses but but when you when you do a sacred dance or a liturgical dance that that's different that is you're calling upon everyone to participate in that if you make that an element of worship which I just don't I don't think there is precedent for liturgical dance as an element of worship in which people are called upon to to to participate okay I I just don't agree with that I think that's as an example I think that's a mistake not at all in fact it's commanded in the Bible lift holy hands so okay can we you want to talk about this award this is this is tricky stuff this is it is tricky it is tricky those are circumstances yes right yeah those are circumstances yeah that's right right except to people who think that they are are or are not elements I mean there is a there is a group of folks right right so there should not be instruments yeah in in the minds of some yeah
you know I don't know why I want to have all the structural basis for why I feel the way I do but I know I have to engage in more of the traditional style where there's meaning behind the energy mm-hmm that's really not that's a that's a that's a question of practical Christianity really not a question so much of worship I mean it's a good question and I think is there a style that is oh yeah I think yeah I do think that there are things that are more pleasing to God than other things I certainly believe that is there is there is there is there a kind of a heavenly paradigm yeah but none of us has been here you know so we're just left with with the Bible and I really like the distinction between elements and circumstances because I I really do think that kind of liberty and freedom is is what we what we ought to have I mean the Lord in his wisdom has has given us a liberty and a freedom I don't either I don't want you to have that attitude about anything I'm glad you use the word maybe but then he couldn't he would possibly come to Christ in another form sure yeah yeah but I'm glad you use the word maybe because I think sometimes we look at what what a what a particular church is a particular group is doing and say and we say about it oh you know people can't relate to that how you know how could my biker friend possibly relate to this you know by saying there's a good chance that he won't there's a good chance that he won't so why don't you tell him why it is we do what we do you know why don't you take the bullets and use it as a gospel tract you don't have to come you don't have to like it don't have to agree but why don't you take the time to explain it to him you know I mean I I think you know that kind of thing that thing is kind of thing is going to be true they're going to be people who just they just it just doesn't fit I mean you know and we do have to work on protecting ourselves just as other people have to protect themselves against making generalizations based upon their own response to something what we all have to have to be careful at that point you that's right you didn't a couple of hands Joe here it good Joe he's a biker he's a flyer uh they come and race they're going to be changed you know they're probably not going to look at the same atmosphere they were in before right I would think that you know the biker guy hangs out the barge it does the church for a allow me to eat churches probably a chain bite
could be could be could be yeah probably yeah he might go to the bars and do something different from what he's done before yeah yeah yeah let's invite him to church now here's here's what here's what I guess I would say is a is a principle sort of a thing for me whatever goes on in this gathering that we call worship however it is that the elements are employed however it is that they're structured whatever it is that is done the thing that I don't ever want all this side of is the fact that this is a meeting between God and his people it is a service of worship and and if what what we say around here so often is true you had better have the expectation that the non-believing person who comes into the midst of that assembly is going to feel uncomfortable and if we begin being driven by whether or not an unbeliever is comfortable or uncomfortable in a certain a service of worship we're being driven by the wrong things and I'm afraid I'm afraid that there's going to be an erosion of the significance and substance of what it is that goes on and the other thing is I think we I think we terribly terribly underestimate what it is that God is able to do himself in the life of an unbeliever in in the midst of worship in the context of a service of worship I mean I really think there ought to be an expectation in fact if you invite somebody to church I think you have to say to them hey you're going to come to a place that is a different country for you it's a different world it'll be strange you'll feel uncomfortable you'll hear things that will cause you to you know maybe the hero stand up on the back of your net you know who knows there ought to be that expectation because if what we say is really true it's the kind I mean it's uncomfortable enough for us sometimes as believers you know so whatever it is that goes on I don't ever want worship to be driven by whether or not a believer or whether or not an unbeliever likes it or feels comfortable I think that's real dangerous so and Diane you know to your question I would just say that's that's a struggle for you it's a struggle I got to tell you it's a struggle for me you know some some of what I have to get over when I go to a service of worship is engaging in a different way I mean I you know I'm always leading and I've got a thing to do and it's it's a it's tough to jump tracks and be a participant in a different way in a service of worship and that's that's hard for me and I got to get over that you know so here it
I'd say I'd say a couple things about that I would say number one wherever there are two believers gathered together that is the church and the Lord is there in the midst of the church and however imperfectly they give expression to that reality and all of these expressions are imperfect you know I don't know what again I don't know what that heavenly paradigm is I think there is one but I think it's probably so multifaceted multi-layered you know it's probably so overwhelmingly glorious you couldn't even begin to think about trying to replicate it here in this in this fallen chaotic confusion but well yeah I'm just you know as a as a I'm trying trying really to be to be helpful and just say remember that wherever there are two people gathered together who name the name of Christ that is the church and Christ is present in the midst of them and however again however imperfectly they may give expression to that reality that is the reality that that is the fact and the other thing is wherever wherever the word of God is governing what goes on in that gathering again however imperfectly that is something that God honors you know and and so the reading of the word the communication of the word the the response of God's people and song the prayers that they offer you know the the rose a rose a rose a rose a rose but I mean a rose by any other name is still a rose and it maybe it takes a while let's kind of see the petals but they're there they're they're there yeah come I agree yeah so it seems to me through the elements in terms of the expectations and cultural context of the congregation or unbelievers come in whatever I would think it's pretty reasonable to do the circumstances with those things right just because we're present materials with sort of a traditional read back to the English doesn't mean that we must do everything in a way that those people did in a different world from the world right right one more example took a class at RTSC only I ever took where they teacher was very uncomfortable that's not strong a word strong enough to work he was totally negative about senior sensibles that wouldn't be wasn't okay there's a good friend here you guys talk a lot but uh no it's good but he uh he was relating the story of one of the truth that had chairs kind of chairs you might find a movie right and this was a quality and I would just suggest that is it an element to have pews right right right and I would have mildly uncomfortable adventures right yeah I mean it's shoot if this is heaven in the midst of the earth it ought to be comfortable where we sit you know
uh right if it had the effect if it had the effect of removing an unnecessary obstacle then do it yeah I agree I agree a bunch of reclines we don't have enough room for a bunch of recline now no I'm fine for two more minutes can't can't can't and and shouldn't try I don't think and well it it um see the United States of America 1997 is a far different place than it was in 1897 100 years ago and arguably 1937 there was a far greater degree of homogeneity in this culture than there is now and I'm not just thinking about ethnic diversity you know I'm thinking about what's the right word and an idea is diversity there is you know there is a tremendous diversity in this culture and I think you make a mistake if you if you try to be all things to all people I think I think the more sensible thing is to say and honestly I I have to say I'm I say this to people I am getting to do at St. Paul's what I've wanted to do for 15 years this is in my heart to do this there have been points at which people have disagreed violently you know um and and they're I know they're if I were to get hit by a truck Frank chain said this Mike if you were to get hit by a truck things would change at St. Paul's because a lot of what is going on at St. Paul's is what I long to do and there are some reasons I long to do what we're doing here one is what I perceive the general culture needs the general culture needs a sense of the transcendent the general culture also needs a sense of imminence it needs these twin truths of the transcendent majesty of the god of glory and it needs also the truth of God's proximity and God's nearness to people that's also why we do communion why we do some of the things that we do the way we do them it's to communicate this idea of proximity the priests aren't hidden behind a screen someplace they're not behind a rail they're not you know that kind of thing we're robed because we are pastors and because there is a distinction in our capacity as pastors there is a distinction between us and the laity okay but we're not removed from the community table is on the floor it's in the midst of the people and we meet with people we serve them and they serve us okay so well so you so you have these you know these two ideas of transcendence and imminence I think those are things that the culture generally needs very much okay but beyond that I've always had a burden for people who when they think of church think of something that is what they would always call traditional Episcopalians who have never heard the gospel Roman Catholics who've been ostracized for some reason Presbyterians who never heard the gospel that's that's and and I realized that that's not the whole of the culture but I'm absolutely convinced that there is a significant percentage a significant portion of the culture out there that that when it thinks of church and worship it thinks in these kinds of categories and I want somebody to minister to those people you know so so I hate to be crass about it but there's a kind of a niche sort of a thing that's a part of this and and then there are other aspects that for me I really think it feels very much to a postmodern kind of a world it's a strange strange sort of a blending of things the the postmodern world they tell me is highly visual highly tactile you know needs symbols needs that kind of thing all of these things that we do and more that we hope to do and we have our own place are visual things they're drama you know I mean somebody said to me several months ago I love the way we do communion I love how we come down the sides and we go back together in the center and I never thought about that but what a wonderful picture of the gospel God gathering people from the four corners of the earth uniting them together at the feet of Christ and then sending them on their way together as united people those kinds of symbols are you know that's just wonderful stuff so and I you know it is a highly visual sort of a world in which we live and I think I think folks not everybody's I don't I don't expect everybody to like it respond to it I wish more did and I hope more will but I don't I don't expect everybody to get it so does that right that's because you're right no okay yeah yeah but yeah I don't I don't I think if you try to be all things to all people I just think you're gonna make a mistake I think what what we really need in this whole thing is people is people giving expression to their convictions whatever those convictions are right and and arguing for those convictions and seek not not in the confrontational sense but in the the reasoning sense you know where you're seeking in a persuasive way to convince people that the reason you do what you do is worthy of their consideration you know it merits some some reflection I think we need people who view this this whole thing and many other things in that way these are my convictions I'm giving expression to them I don't think we should be afraid of disagreements I don't think we should be afraid of conversation what I don't like is when in the interest of an apparent harmony we we keep quiet about our convictions and you sort of reduce everything to a lowest common denominator say let you know say let's okay let's find a two or three things that we agree about which in the end ends up not being very much I think I think we're much better off when we when we know what we believe and why we believe it and we're trying to give expression to it and then we lock arms with those who know what they believe and why they believe it and are giving expression to it in a different way but we say to the world we disagree about this as brothers as family members but when it comes to Jesus and your need a salvation we stand together that to me is the right kind of of ecumenism if you will the right kind of ecumenical the right kind of unity presented to the church we've got to stop I'm sorry but we'll continue this next week and finish up if you have more thoughts about worship bring them okay and let's talk about this some more because I really the purpose of these last two classes is to help you know take all this stuff that we've talked about and say this is what we're doing here at St. Paul's in Hawaii so that that everybody can have a better understanding of it okay let's pray Lord make our hearts glad not in these secondary things which can be distractions to us but make us glad in the gospel and that this glorious thing that it is to be called the son or the daughter of the living God to know that we have the forgiveness of our sins to know that we have a hope laid up for us in heaven which will not perish or fade away oh Lord be with us remain mighty among us until that day when we enjoy that hope and all of its fullness we pray in Jesus name