Even though I know we'll have a lot of people coming in late, I hope to get through chapter 11 today. So I'm going to read not the whole section, just the last portion of chapter 11 as we begin today and as we open in prayer. I'm going to go right to the 7th angel and the 7th trumpet in chapter 11 verse 15 and following. 15 through 18. Then the 7th angel blew his trumpet. Oh, excuse me. Are we on? Are we on? I better make sure. We are on. Okay, apologies to those listening by tape. All right, chapter 11 verses 15 through 18. Then the 7th angel blew his trumpet and there were loud voices in heaven saying the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ. And he shall reign forever and ever and the 24 elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God saying. We give thanks to the Lord God Almighty who art and who wast that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged with thy wrath came and a time for the dead to be judged for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints and those who fear thy name both small and great and for destroying the destroyers of the earth. Then God's temple in heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple and there were flashes of lightning. Loud noises, peals of thunder and earthquake and heavy hail. Let's pray. Lord, you know that we are in the midst of this world of trouble and woe. This indeed is a life that is full of tribulation. But Lord Jesus, you have told us not to be alarmed for though we have a tribulation in this world, you have overcome the world and the world belongs to you.
Lord, our hearts ring with anticipation as we wait for that glorious day. When we too will hear the angels sing, the kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever. Oh Lord, we pray that we would gain a greater glimpse of that wonder that we would know even now what it is to be kings and priests in your great nation and your great kingdom, even amidst our tribulation. Lord, take away our sins this morning by the blood of the Lamb and allow us to come in obedience before your word. Speak to us. We pray for we are your servants and you are our God in Christ's name. Amen. We are ready for chapters 10 and 11 this morning and I'm going to have to figure out some way of either condensing the book of Revelation or find some way of perhaps finding other meeting times. I haven't really talked to Bob about this in any detail but I think one possibility might be to carry on into the next quarter and carry on the Sunday school. And I'm not sure if we need a whole session, a whole 13 weeks, I don't think we do. So we might have to work something out there. Just a sort of a heads up. Maybe if you have any input on that question you could let me know. Alright, we're ready to start chapter 10 now. I did want to say something very brief about last week before we moved on because I was not quite satisfied at the end that I communicated some stuff that should have been communicated. I think as we were going through the six trumpets, the first six trumpet blasts and events that follow them tend to them. I think we got a pretty good sense that to try to take all this imagery literally will end up with a lot of difficulties. I think we had a pretty good sense of that. What I was not quite as satisfied with was, okay, having said that, what exactly does it mean? How do we look at how do we understand? We made some suggestions, we talked about some things but I wasn't quite satisfied that in some of the discussions afterwards kind of reinforced that for me. I only want to say a few brief things about the interpretation. How do we look at these today? Keep in mind that you had the first four trumpet blasts and judgments were poured out in some fashion rather on first there was the sea, or excuse me, the earth, the sea, the inland waters that became wormwood and poisoned to drink, and then upon the heavens essentially the planets and the sun, the third of the sun was dark and so forth. If you have these ways of looking at God's creation in those four categories, keep in mind that in the first century context, this was very much an attack on idolatry. You might remember at the end of chapter 9, verses 20 and 21, we have this scathing comment that even through all these plagues, those who weren't killed did not repent of the works of their hands, nor give up worshipping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood. They didn't repent of their idolatries or their wickedness, and in the first century context all these areas of nature aspects of them would have been worshipped in the Greek and Roman pantheons. There was an earth goddess, there were heavenly deities, there were gods of the sea and of the waters and so forth. Much like the plagues of Egypt, many of those plagues had a particular apologetic oplemic against the gods of Egypt, to array the sun god and the nile and so forth. So I think this would have had an apologetic impact in the first century, that it is the god of the Christians who is creator and lord of all these aspects of creation, and he is the one who not only made them but rules over them. So now that is a particular point that may not transfer in our day just like it did for them, because we do this whenever we talk about denunciations of idolatry and the Bible. We don't have the same kinds of idolatries, the same kinds of false religion, but we do have idolatries and we do have false religion today. We just have to make the sort of mental transfer to our day, and we also tend to look at all of nature much differently today and away. We then have a very mechanistic, materialistic, non-theistic view of the world that even seeps into our own thinking a lot. When we think of natural disasters, do we immediately, and do we always think of god and his control, the world certainly doesn't, and when you hear the newscast they don't. But again, I think this is one thing that should make a difference. Remember at the end of chapter 9, even through all these judgments and plagues, people did not repent. And that surely should be one, I'm not saying this is the complete explanation of all natural disasters. But this should be one of the effects of hurricanes, plane crashes, and other things that we think of god and his ruling and overruling over his creation. And it should cause sinners to repent, to think of his judgment, to think of his power. And does it have that effect? Does it have that effect among us? Well, I think sometimes god uses that that way, but in our culture in general, you'd have to say, well, it hardly has that effect very much, probably. I remember going to this Titanic exhibit, and when it was in St. Pete's. I don't know if any of you got the chance to do that, but it was so very interesting in many ways. But one of the things that just stuck out to me was that at the time of the Titanic disaster, there was a lot of talk about god in this country. And probably in Britain as well, a lot. I mean, the point was made that the Titanic was called unsinkable. And that's why they call it unsinkable, Molly Brown, because she survived the Titanic. But the Titanic was called unsinkable. And somebody who made the comment, even, you know, that somebody in relation to the ship, you know, god himself couldn't sink this ship. And right after the disaster, I mean, there was a lot of talk about this being a judgment on man's hubris and pride and so forth. Well, that's just an example of how things have changed, I think, even since, you know, 1913, 1912, and our day. But so I think we should look at these, these plagues and these disasters in the trumpet judgments. In that way, not that we're looking at any one point in history when this is going to occur, but that we look at all natural disasters that we look at all phenomena in nature. And even in the spiritual, I would say more the spiritual judgments with the fifth and the sixth trumpets, where we have the locus plagues and the innumerable horse cavalry army as spiritual plagues of darkness and affliction. We should see that in the light of God's control over all things and recognize His judgment and His power to judge His authority to judge in all these things throughout history. Okay. Well, maybe that will help guide us in how we think of those. But I want to go on then to chapter 10. We started this chapter last time. When we read the first few verses, you will remember that what happens now is a kind of interlude. I'm calling it an interlude because it comes between the sixth and the seventh trumpet, right? And remember, we had something like this when we had the seals. In between the sixth and the seventh seal, there was an interlude where something else is going on. And we had chapter 7 where we saw the 144,000 and we saw the innumerable multitude in heaven. And then we come to the seventh seal. Well, just so here, there's a division between the sixth and the seventh trumpet for whatever reason. And I think one of the reasons is again to give us just like that first interlude an assurance of God's preservation of His people, His church throughout all of these disasters throughout all of these judgments. Okay. So there's a sort of a break in the action, you might say. And John sees a great angel descending from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, a rainbow over his head and so forth. There's this depiction of the angel in sort of terms of glory. He has a scroll open, a little scroll open in his hand. He has one foot on the sea, one foot on the land, perhaps indicating that his work at this point has to do with land and sea. It has to do with great stretches of the world. And he calls out seven thunders sound and it's very curious notation and that John was not allowed to write what the seven thunders said. And your speculation, I'm sure, is as good as mine as to what that might mean, but he sold not to write that down. But what the point of the angel appearance to John then comes in versus five and following. He swears by him who lives forever and ever, who created all things. He swears that there should be no more delay, but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God as he announced his servants, the prophets should be fulfilled. So that's the point of his proclamation. No more delay when the seventh trumpet is sounded in those days, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, all that he spoke by the prophets. Now, I think this means then that when we get to the seventh trumpet, we should expect that that's going to be another indication of the end, the end of history. Everything's going to be wrapped up at the seventh trumpet, you know, the mystery of God pronounced by the prophets will be fulfilled. So that's just an indication I think that we're to look for a picture of the end when we come to the seventh trumpet. Now, we don't come to the seventh trumpet yet, but that's kind of a preview. Then, in verse 8, the voice that John heard tells him to take the scroll, which is in the angel's hands, and do what? To eat it, right? Now, some of you may be familiar with this imagery that has actually occurred in the Old Testament in a couple of places. Does that ring any bells? Exactly. Great. We've got Bible students today. Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Jeremiah, at least at one place in 1516, Jeremiah talks about God's words as he eats them. He eats God's words. He's a prophet. Prophets, you know, eat God's words. And then they tell us what they are. And in Ezekiel, Ezekiel is probably the most, well, it's the closest correspondence. So that would be in Ezekiel 2 and 3. The end of chapter 2 and the first 11 verses are so of chapter 3. If you want to go back and look at that sometime, that would be interesting. But that's where Ezekiel is also given a scroll and told to eat it. And the words were sweet in his mouth, but not once he swallowed the scroll. And that meant that he had, essentially, he was going to have bad news for Israel because it was bitter in his stomach. It's going to have bad news. Well, John experiences something like that. It was sweet as honey in his mouth and bitter in his stomach. And the angel then says, verse 11, you must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings, many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. Well, that maybe doesn't tell us a whole lot yet, but I think it does help us with, you know, the question of how we interpret revelation. We've mentioned from time to time the several different interpretations. We're going to get into some of those again today. But you remember that one of them sees most of everything in revelation as having to do with the war between Rome and Jerusalem, the fall of Jerusalem in 87. Because of what the angel says to John here, that passed some doubt on that interpretation for me. Because the angel says it's not just about Israel, it's about many nations and peoples that you have to prophesy about. Just an indication that Paul, that John is given a revelation that is universal. I mean, it's going to concern the whole world, not just Palestine, not just what's going on in Palestine in the first century. Okay, we'll get into that some more in just a moment. Moving right into chapter 11, what I was the fastest chapter we've ever covered in this class. That's because I just keep running at the mouth and don't let you ask anything, but we'll get to that chapter 11. Then John is given a measuring rod like a staff and is told rise and measure the temple of God in the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple. Leave that out for it is given over to the nations and they will trample over the Holy City for 42 months. And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth. Well, then we have a long description of the two witnesses that have been mentioned and what happens with them, what their ministry is, how they are eventually killed by a beast that rises up from the pit, how they're killed, how they, their bodies lie in the street for three and a half days and then they're taken up to heaven. That's sort of what follows about the two witnesses. Now, as we approach this whole section, there are a number of major interpretative questions that face us. Things like, what is the temple that John's talking about? How do we interpret that? Who or what are the two witnesses? That's got to be a big, there may be some details here later on, but this is a big, you know, what are the two witnesses? How do we look at them? And what about this time period, 42 months, 1,260 days, mathematicians, what are those two numbers having common? Alright, they're the same, they're the same, same period of time, and that period of time we would call a simpler, alright, three and a half years, they're both three and a half years, aren't they? Yeah, that up. I know this because I wrote it down, not because I can do it in my head. Alright, so we have a number of these elements that call out for attention. First of all, in verses 1 through 3, the measuring of the temple, the measuring of the temple. This too has an Old Testament background, particularly in Ezekiel where Ezekiel is told something similar to measure of the temple. What is the temple that's being spoken of? Again, there are a number of approaches. You could say this is a literal temple at the last days, and so the temple, from our perspective, if this is the temple in the last days before Jesus returns, a temple's got to be rebuilt, right? There's not one there now. There's a problem, in fact, with the building of a temple there now, isn't there? And that is, there's a pretty important mosque there right now, Ken? Well, if it's the last days temple, just before Jesus returned, I mean, yeah, some of the temples have been destroyed, and we've got to be rebuilding. Some of you recognize from past studies or sermons, books maybe you've read, maybe even movies you've seen, about the last days that there has to be a temple rebuilt on that same side. That's one approach, so this is the temple, or perhaps this is, in some sense has to do with literal Israel, at least. Another approach takes this also as pretty literal, but it's the temple of the first century. We could call this the top one, it's pretty much the pre-millennial approach, dispensational pre-millennial, if you're with me on that, if you're not, just forget it. And this one is the, what, preterist approach. Remember, preterist things happened that had already occurred, mostly in the first century. This will be the first century temple, and would identify then this with what's going on in Jerusalem, there's going to be a war, and the temple will be destroyed. There's another approach, and I know Bob Brown isn't here this morning, but Bob, I know you're going to listen by tape. So this, again, I'm saving the best for last, even though it's on the bottom on the board, it is not thereby the lowest view. We could say that this is a symbol symbolic temple, therefore it's not literal, and it has to stand for something else. Now, if it stands for something else, what would that probably be? That the church. In fact, you might even say the church, well, where have we heard about a temple already in Revelation? Have we heard about a temple on earth? Well, that's questionable. Have we heard about a temple in heaven? Yes, we have, in the seven letters to the seven churches, and in chapters four and five, where John goes up to the heavenly throne room, right? He's there in the throne room of God, of God. So this could be a symbol of, let's say, the heavenly church, where God dwells with his people, the heavenly temple. And John is told to rise and measure that. Now, I think that this is the right approach, though it's on the bottom. And I think we're given a hint about that at the end of the chapter, verse 19, 11, verse 19. Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant was seen within his temple. In other words, there is a temple in heaven. And this is what is being spoken of. It's the heavenly temple. Yes. I think there is a relationship between Jesus saying, tear down this temple, and now we're built in three days. And that is that, you know, you go back to the whole meaning of the temple in Tabernacle and Scripture as being where God dwells with his people, where he meets with his people. And that we know was in the temple, or the Tabernacle, but supremely, it's in no other place than Jesus Christ. Right? He is in his body, is the temple. Because that's where, you know, John says, the word became flesh and dwelt, Tabernacled among us. And we beheld his glory. That's the ultimate of God dwelling with men, Emmanuel, God with us. And everything else, all the other temple symbolism is in a way derivative from that. So I think there is a relationship. And now, but we do have the heavenly temple symbolizing, again, I think God's dwelling with us people in heaven. And remember, in the New Heavens and New Earth, chapter 21, the text says that there will no longer be need for a temple because the Lamb is their temple. So, yeah, it's a wonderful image throughout all of Scripture. And I think that reinforces that we're not talking about either one of the literal temples here, but we're talking about the heavenly church. Okay, what would it mean then for John to measure that temple and to leave out? He's told to leave out the outer court of that temple. He's not to measure that. Do you not leave that out the court outside the temple because it's given over the nations, and they'll trample it. They'll trample the city for 42 months. Ken? Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Jesus cleansing of the temple and that being in a sense, a sort of prefigurement of the judgment of the temple, Christ judging the temple in advance. And I think it does tie in thematically because the outside of the court is going to be trampled by the nations. Now, I would take this to mean that the heavenly temple is the altar in those who worship there, but the part that's trampled is probably the church on earth. We have the heavenly church and the church on earth that's going to suffer going to endure tribulation and trampling during this 42 month period. Now, there are other interpretations of that. 42 months being, you know, right towards the end of history and this view and the preterist view. It has a pretty literal significance too that the 42 months would be the time of the Jewish war with Rome. But one reason why I can't really accept this preterist view, the preterist approach, is that in fact, it looks as though the point of this prophecy seems to be, see if you agree with this, that the temple itself that's measured, what's measured, is protected. It says measure the temple and the altar in those who worship it, but don't measure the outer court why because it's going to be destroyed. It's given up to the nations. The temple itself, the sanctuary part, is preserved. That's the point of the prophecy. But what happened to the literal temple in the first century? It was quite destroyed and so I think it's an easy on the surface. This would seem very much like supporting the preterist view. We're talking about a temple. We're talking about a war. We're talking about trampling by the Romans. But I don't think it works out because the point of this prophecy is to say that the sanctuary and the people who worship there will be preserved and it's the rest that's going to be trampled out over. That's the way I would suggest that we look at the temple here. Let's go on to talk about the 42 months or the 1260 days. That's a key part of the symbolism too, isn't it? Again, we could talk about the 42 months and the 1260 days later on it's called time times and half a time. Again, I would say that's the same period where time stands for a year. A year, years, and half a year, three and a half years. We actually have expressions of this time period, several times in chapters 11 through 13. Several different things are said about this time period. Are these the same three and a half year period or are they different? Let's say are there two, three and a half and three and a half together and you get seven. And somebody asked a while back where this idea of a seven year tribulation comes from. Well, this is it, putting two of these three and a half together also goes back to Daniel but a book of Revelation. It's here with these three and a half year periods. So are there, is there one or are there two? That's one question. And if there are, if there's only one, what does it have to do with? Again, the dispensational view would tend to say it's two periods. First half of the seven year tribulation is, well, not so bad, but the second half of that period all hell breaks loose and the antichrist shows his true character and so forth. The preterist approach would say that take that three and a half years and that is roughly the time of the Roman and Jewish war from 66 AD to 70 AD. It's a very, very close correspondence. It would be a bewildering set of choices isn't it? Or a more symbolic approach to the three and a half years, what would that stand for there? Well, I would suggest that it is a symbolic way of depicting the whole interadvent era between the first, basically the first coming Christ and the second coming of Christ. Now, the full proof of this, I think, doesn't come until chapter 12. So we're going to have to put that off for today. Right now, I think you should know these major approaches. The approach I think is best is the symbolic one. And I can't fully defend that right now. I can say that I do think that the preterist view is off again on this. And again, it looks so good on the surface because there is a rough correspondence between the time of the war with Jerusalem and Rome and the 42 months. But it's not perfect and there are problems with that. The text says that during that 42-month period, what happens? The Holy City is given to the nations and they will trample it for 42 months. Well, you look at the war with Rome and that's not what happened. The Romans were only surrounding Jerusalem for about five months towards right towards the end. And in fact, if you look at that whole three and a half year period or so, the Spacian who was the Roman general attacking at the time, sort of took a break from the war for almost a year. It wasn't doing anything in that period. And as I said, it didn't even reach Jerusalem until the last five months. And then once the walls were broken down, it was only a matter of days before the temple was burned. So it, although it looks like on the surface, it might look like that. It just doesn't fit with what we know of history. Okay. So having this posed with that one, I'm just asking you to sort of keep these in mind as we go through.
Now what about the two witnesses? Another crucial element in the chapter. We can again look at our three basic approaches here. The futurist pre-millennial for approach that everything is future hasn't happened yet. Tens to look at these two witnesses as two literal individuals who will come in the last days and who will have a prophetic ministry, especially with regard to the Jews because in this scheme of things, the church is gone. It's been raptured. So they have a ministry with the 144,000 Israelites. Okay. Literal individuals in the last days. Perhaps they'll even identify them as Enoch and Elijah. Good. Right. Enoch and Elijah. Any notion of why Enoch and Elijah? What's that? Oh good. It's appointed for man once to die. And they didn't die. Right. Or at least that's a common idea that Enoch was taken. Doesn't mention his death. Enoch and the Old Testament in Genesis. He walked with God and God took him. And Elijah of course went up in the chariot. So their deaths are not recorded in Scripture. So maybe it's Enoch and Elijah. Some people take that view. The preterist view tends to look at, well, it would have to be, whatever it is, it has to be something before AD 70 doesn't. At least in the sort of preterist view that we're talking about here. So there's a tendency to identify the two witnesses as, let's say, the law and the prophets, two portions of Scripture. That's a more symbolic approach. But what about the more symbolic approach that I've been advocating? Any other possible symbolism for the two witnesses? Anything come to mind? Rob? Okay. Old and New Testament. That sort of fits in roughly with the preterist view, but it wouldn't have to be preterist. But taking them as the Old and the New Testament. Another symbolic approach for the two witnesses. Okay. The two olive trees going back to Zechariah could be Jew and Gentile church perhaps. Okay. Yeah. How about just the church itself? Maybe Jew and Gentile. Maybe just two witnesses to depict the church itself. Why would it be two if that were the case? Visible, invisible, Jewish and Gentile? Old Testament, New Testament? There are a number of twos, what's? Second coming, first and second coming of Christ, okay. How about just that two also is the number of witness? Jesus sends out his disciples two by two, right? In the Old Testament, you could not be convicted except on the testimony of two or three witnesses, at least two witnesses, right? Jesus says when how many are gathered in my name, two are gathered in my two or three are gathered in my name. So there is a certain duality associated with witness in Scripture, particularly with witness. And many commentators point to that. Notice or remember that in Matthew 24 or 14, remember Matthew 24 is the Olivet discourse. We've noticed a number of correspondences between revelation and that discourse of Jesus when he predicts his coming and the end of Jerusalem. This gospel must be preached to all nations as a witness and then the end will come. So there is a thematic tie in here, if that the church should be depicted as witnesses, as to the two witnesses for Christ, before he comes. And that's an essential aspect of the church between the first and the second coming to be his witness. Jesus tells his disciples, you are my witnesses and you will be my witnesses for in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth. He tells his disciples after he rises from the dead. Therefore, two is a symbolic number, much like the seven spirits that we saw already in chapter one, the Holy Spirit depicted under the number of seven, the church here under the number of two. Now there are a number of things I think that confirm this, that work into this, that we see as we would work through the text. In verse four, they are called the two olive trees and the two lamp stands. Now that's a little bit different, two olive trees and two lamp stands. Remember where that imagery comes from in the Old Testament? Zechariah? Right. Oh excellent, the Old Testament, it always helps to have an Old Testament scholar in the class. Thank you, well we've got two olive trees and all of trees are kind of squiggly. You know, two olive trees and a lamp stand. No, two lamp stands. What you'll see in the prophecy of Zechariah 4, if you go back and be an interesting study to do that, there are two olive trees and there is actually only one lamp stand with a great bowl on it. It has sort of seven lamps. I take it to be something like that, lamps would burn on this bowl. Now what would the bowl contain? Something like this. This is a very unfamiliar to us who don't, you know, we live in the age of electricity. Okay, the oil, this would probably be the reservoir for the oil that would supply oil to all the branches of the candle stand. Okay, and there were seven of them. Okay, just one candle stand with like seven lamps on it. Okay, so this had to run on oil, right? Now oil in the Old Testament in the Bible is very, very important symbolism. In that prophecy, the angel interprets it to Zechariah and one of the key phrases is not by might, but by my spirit says the Lord. Well, the spirit is going to be the supply of God's strength to his people. Remember Zechariah's time issue was well, the restoration of the people and the restoration of the temple and so forth. And as Mrs. Roach has already pointed out, in the prophecy, the olive trees stand for the two anointed. And those two anointed are the king and the priest, the king being anybody, Zerubbable. He was the rightful king at the time and the priest being Joshua, the high priest, Joshua the high priest. And they would supply, you know, they're anointed, olive trees produce what? Olive oil, right? Oil. So they're the anointed with oil and they supply the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit works through them to the people. They're going to be the gods anointed for the people, which is the lampstand. So it's a very involved and interesting symbol as an Zechariah. This being called upon in chapter 11 of Revelation. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands. Now, in Zechariah there was only one, but here they're two, probably again just in keeping with the duality, the tooness of the witness thing, but they're both. Now, what we're seeing then, I think, is that the church is king, priest, and prophet. Prophet, priest, and king, that the witness is a very much a prophetic function to be a witness. But we've also got aspects of kingliness, aspects of priestliness, all built into this one image, which of course also would fit because Jesus is prophet, priest, and king. And the church is like him in the world as prophet, priest, and king. We've also had already the symbolism of lampstands, haven't we, in Revelation? What symbolic functions have lampstands had already? Right, they're the churches. Remember in chapter 1, the vision of Jesus walking amidst the lampstands. And Jesus tells John at the end of that vision that the seven stars he held in his hand are seven angels, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. And in fact, the church's emphasis was threatened if they did not repent, Jesus would take away their lampstand. So lampstands have already functioned in Revelation as symbols of the church. Lampstands give light to the world. They give light, and they have a witnessing function in that sense at all. So I think this all ties together pretty well symbolically, not without problems, but I think this ties together as an image of the church, the witnessing church. In verse 6, we have part of this image that is maybe a little harder to understand. The two witnesses have power to afflict sky, waters, and earth throughout the time of their prophecy. And to strike the earth with plagues. This would be maybe easy to conceive, well I don't think it's ever easy to conceive, but you could say that on a futurist point of view, well that's all future and it's going to happen someday in the future. What about on this interpretation, if the two witnesses are the church, how is it that the church could have power to afflict earth and sea and sky with plagues? That might be a little more of a challenge, but not a challenge unknown in the book of Revelation. We've already seen in chapter 8 the beginning, how it is in a mysterious way, the prayers of the saints that rise up before God in the heavenly temple, that lead directly to the calling out of the seven angels with their trumpets, and they blow those trumpets and judgments fall on the earth, on the sea and the inland waters, and the sky. So it ties in with the imagery that we've already seen in Revelation and that in some way the church through the authority that the Lamb has given to the church, that figures some way in the judging of mankind by God. Recall just as another illustration, Jeremiah, chapter 5 and chapter 23 or a couple verses to the similar effect, where the words of Jeremiah the Prophet, remember this symbolism, his words are like a fire burning up the wood of the people. God's word is sometimes depicted that way as a fire consuming his foes. The words of Jesus in chapter 1, we have an image, a strong image, a sword coming out of his mouth, not a sword at his side in his hand, but a sword coming out of his mouth. That's a biblical imagery of the judging function of God's word. Jesus says his words will judge his opponents on the last day. So in some mysterious way, the church, by being the remaining incarnation of Christ on earth and by proclaiming his word faithfully, has the keys of the kingdom. Jesus tells his disciples that you have the keys of the kingdom. You can open it and you can shut it. And those keys have been identified in the Reformation churches at least with the word of God, preaching the word of God in church discipline, opening and shutting the kingdom against them believers and for those who repent. So I think that this is just a very graphic symbolism in keeping with depicting the church as two witnesses of the power of the church, the spiritual power of the church throughout the age until Christ's Second Coming. John, isn't that in a sense always a message of blessing or a message of wealth? We don't usually think of it that way. You know, it's either a message of grace or a message of judgment. And I wonder if some sense that could be, you know, what is figured in this. Right. Yeah, I think I think absolutely. We don't like to think about that way. We like to think of the gospel as grace, grace and all grace, but it's grace, grace and judgment, isn't it? An acceptance and belief or rejection on them. Yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah, I think so I think that as part of the image, I think that's the key thing here. Now, what happens in the next verses? The after they've finished their testimony, the beast will ascend from the bottomless pit and will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. Okay. Very startling image. Could it be that the church in its witness will be stifled one day? That's what seems to say. And we know that Jesus in the Matthew 24 passage did say, you know, the gospel, the kingdom must be preached as witness to all nations and then the end will come. That is that there is an end to the church's witness in history. And some commentators will say this does not necessarily mean that all Christians will be killed. It just means that the church in its witnessing function will be stifled right before the coming of Christ. So much that it looks to the world, all the world as though they are dead. The two witnesses, the church is dead. Its witness has been snuffed out like a lamp snuffed out. And these two witnesses lie dead on the city on the streets of the great city. But the world rests the world rejoices because it doesn't have to put up with these pesky Christians anymore and their condemning words. And we know how good that would stand through a lot of people in our day. So this does seem to be depicting a time when the church's witness will be all but stifled just before the coming of Christ. But right at the end, in the midst of the world celebration of its victory, there's a voice from heaven that calls the two witnesses to come up. And very much mirroring the life of their Lord who was killed and for three days or so was in the tomb and then was taken up to heaven. Such a future awaits the church. Now there's another question here about the great city that's mentioned, great city. Is it Jerusalem? It's Jerusalem is the least part of the image here. It's said to be allegorically Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was crucified. That's Jerusalem. But is it Jerusalem of the first century? Jerusalem of the 20th, 21st century? Or is it Jerusalem as a symbol along with Sodom and Egypt of the unbelieving and persecuting world against Christians? I'll go along with the commentators who take that last view. That it is a depiction and Jerusalem fits because it became the persecutor of Christians in the first century along with Rome. It is a picture of the world city, the city that is in opposition to the Christians, to the church. Well, at any rate at the end of chapter 11, the church, getting ahead of myself here, the church is taken up in the form of the two witnesses. And what happens at the end, then there's a great earthquake. Verse 13, a tenth of the city fell, 7,000 people were killed in the earthquake and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Another mention of the response of those around about at that time when the church is taken up. And I think this should be seen as right at the end, just before Christ comes. The commentators differ over whether this phrase, they glorified God means they were repented or that they didn't repent. It's just that they give glory to God but it's too late sort of a thing. Sort of what happened with Akin when he gave glory to God but he was in the midst of being judged at the time. The second woe is passed, behold, the third woe is soon to come in verse 14. And then we have in verse 15, this interlude that we've been talking about between the 6th and 7th trumpet is over. This interlude that I think again is supposed to bring assurance to the church that God is with us and that he will bless our witness throughout this age. And even though we may be killed by the beast, we will be taken up to be with him in heaven. So now we come to the end of that interlude to the 7th trumpet. And what happens when the 7th trumpet is blown, again, go back to the prophecy of the angel in chapter 10 that in the days of the 7th trumpet, all the mystery of God will be fulfilled. So I take that this is to get our minds to think that this is going to be the last judgment seen. And indeed I think that's what's going on. The 17th angel of the blue is trumpet and there were loud voices in heaven saying the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever and ever. The 24 elders worship and let's go to verse 18. The nations raged but thy wrath came and the time for the dead to be judged for awarding nice servants, the prophets and saints, those who fear thy name both small and great and for destroying the destroys of the earth. In other words, they're at the eve of the last judgment when the dead are raised and the wicked and the righteous are judged. Now, you know, it's about time we go, but I want to make the point that this scene, the way it's described, is another key, at least to my way of thinking, that would seem to rule out a purely a pre-millennial or purely futurist point of view and also brings difficulties for the pre-interest view. Because of what it says here, this has every appearance of being in a depiction of the judgment, talking about the last judgment, the dead are raised and it's the wicked and the righteous who are judged in the same judgment. Everybody catch that? It's a simple point. It's just that the dead are raised, the wicked and the righteous are judged at the same time. So where is the millennium? Where is the earthly millennium on the pre-millennial point of view? You've got a bit of a problem. The millennium hasn't been mentioned just prior to this and it's not mentioned in between the judgment of the wicked and the righteous. On that scheme you have Christ coming and then the righteous are judged and blasted and then there's a thousand year period of their reign and then the wicked are judged at the end of that period. So there's no separation there. It's all one judgment. It doesn't seem to leave a room for an earthly millennium there. And the problem with the pre-interest view is this does not seem like a depiction of something that happened in the first century. It looks like the last judgment. The dead are raised, the wicked and the righteous are judged and so the seventh trumpet then has to do with the last judgment, brings us right up to the time of the last judgment. Okay, I know I've gone through some of that quickly but we actually did get a lot of things talked about. Any final questions or comments? Yes, sir. It's not a factor. It's less of a factor. It seemed like a thing in the United States. And I wonder if we're never good at interpreting our own time but it seems like we have some possibility that we could read this passage and look forward to the possibility of a revival of the church in our time that could precede the coming of Christ. And I'm not saying I'm not going to go out and write a book, but I'm just wondering if that is no possibility in the context of church in its condition today. That's very interesting, John. I mean that that occurred to be too as I was reflecting on this. How in many quarters of the church today, it almost does look like. It looks like the world is, does it look like the other world is celebrating its victory over the church? Not everywhere though. I mean we can't say this maybe characterizes the church all over the planet but it just seems that it rings so familiar. It seems like the church is the wake of the church is being announced these days. Okay, let's close in prayer. We thank you our dear Father for again opening our eyes to this marvelous book. We pray that as we reflect on these great things that you would indeed speak to us, that you would lead us further and further into your truth. Lord, we confess that we do not have a final grasp on it but we trust in you to lead us into the things that are needful for us to know. And arm us, we pray for the dangers and the spiritual hazards that would threaten us and our children. Encourage us now by your word and Christ's name. Amen.