Okay, Doctor of Trinity. Thank you. So we did a definition at the beginning. God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God. And then point A was the doctrine of the Trinity is progressively revealed in Scripture. And we went through a number of those passages that indicate a plurality of persons in God, even at Genesis 1, let us make man in our image after our likeness. And then a more complete revelation in the New Testament point two with a number of passages talking about Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And then there were three statements, this again we did in the previous two weeks, three statements that summarize the biblical teaching number one. God is three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each persistent from the other. And each person is fully God. Trent, I lost that screen. Each person is fully God. So God, the Father is God, and God, the Son is fully God and we went through some verses on that and the Holy Spirit is also joined with the Father and Son like in phrases like baptizing them in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit and the one name joining them together as having full deity. So the Holy Spirit is fully God, and then there is one God. And so hero Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Now how do we put that together? Simplistic solutions deny one strand of biblical teaching and we went through how if people deny that God is three persons and you get one person in God, but that doesn't, and then it's simple. Or if you deny the second one, you deny that the Son and the Spirit are fully God, then you just have the Father being God and there's no mental puzzle to figure out. Or if you have, if you deny that there's one God, then you get three gods and that's an error, but then the statements aren't hard to put together. But if you affirm all three, it's hard to put them together and people puzzle over that. So that's the question. And then we talked about some analogies and analogies maybe help us a little bit, but they have shortcomings and they know analogy adequately teaches about the Trinity and they are misleading in different ways. Then has God always been Trinity? Yes, God eternally and necessarily exists as Trinity.
And then we talked last week about these errors that came up where different teachers in the history of the church said, oh, I've got it figured out. Here's the answer and then they started teaching something that was really eventually rejected by the rest of the leadership or the rest of the churches at the time. And so through and appearing up to 325 AD, in the years preceding that, there were lots of disputes and debates and discussions and arguments about the Trinity. Then the Nicene Creed rejected a number of these wrong teachings in 325 and then 381 again at Constantinople. There was another church council and they added on a paragraph about the Holy Spirit, but they again rejected these teachings. What was rejected? What was rejected? One was this idea of modalism that there's one person who appears to us in three different modes. Look, I didn't make up these names. I'm not responsible for them, but it's been the same wrong doctrine has been called by three different things, modalism or subelianism after a man named Sibelius or modalistic monarchanism. The idea of modes was this idea that one person can act in different modes or different ways. I use Jack for an example. Jack can be a father or a husband or an elder, I guess, or a son or you can have different ways, you have different roles that you play or different modes, but Jack still just one person. And some people said, oh, that's what the Trinity is like. God acts like the father in the Old Testament. He acts like the son in the Gospels. He acts like the Spirit in the Epistles and acts in the Epistles, but it's just one person. And yet the church said, wait a minute, that doesn't fit, that doesn't make sense because we have Jesus praying to the father. We have the father sending the son into the world to distinct persons. And then Jesus said, if I go away, I'll send the Holy Spirit to you. That's another person. So in order to be faithful to those passages, then the church said, we will not accept this modalism. This idea that God is just one person. We have to say that God is three persons. Now, Mary Jane, are you here? Yeah, afterward Mary Jane asked me a really good question last week. And this happens. People ask, they come up to me after, hey, what about this? And then I say, oh, I wish I had thought about asking that question because here's the question. When Jesus was praying to whom was he praying? Well, he was praying to the father. Okay, then Mary Jane said, well, then wouldn't people think this? If he's praying to the father and the son and the father are one being, then wasn't he praying to himself? Okay. And my answer to that is no. He wasn't praying to himself. He was praying to the father. Well, aren't the father and the son, the one God, aren't they the same being? Yes, they are. But there are different persons. And so the different persons do different things and praying and hearing prayers are personal activities. And so we have different activities for the different persons, but in the one God. And so but that question was a good way of thinking about these differences that we have to maintain that there are personal differences. So here's another way of saying that. John 316, God, so love the world that he gave his only son. So the father and then Jesus talks about the father sending him into the world. And if the father did not send, for God to not send the son into the world to condemn the world, but the world might be saved through him. He's been sent from the father. Well, okay, the father sent the son into the world. Did the father send himself then? No. He sent the son. Are they the same being? Yes. Then why didn't he send himself? Because they're different persons. Am I making sense? Okay. So then that's the puzzle. How can they be the same being, but different persons? Well, we keep on working and trying to understand that even though we don't understand it fully. Okay, so modalism was this idea. There's just one person and the church said no. This, this, we can step this. And and modalism was seen in the, ah, modalism is seen today in this, this, these, the groups called the Oneness Pentecostals. And they are, they're, or they're called the United Pentecostal Church. And I'm sorry, the word Pentecostal is in their title, but it just is. They're unlike all the other Pentecostals in the world with whom we would share a lot of beliefs in the truthfulness of Scripture, but this is a particular subgroup, a particular denomination. And their nickname, the Jesus only people, and that they are modalists, they just think they're, that they would say that Jesus is praying to himself. See, because they would say they're just one person. It's and, ah, at least I think they'd have to say that. I don't know how, and that it, yeah, because they would say that was just an, um, an illusion to teach us something about prayer or something like that. Ah, ah, so, um, ah, they are kind of around, but I think that's a mistake to deny that there are different persons. The shortcoming of modalism, it denies personal relationship, the trinity. Then the other error was arianism, and it denies the full deity of the sun and the Holy Spirit. And so, I'm going to, let me draw these up here again. I don't usually do this much review, but these, these kind of titles and ideas are new, and so I'm going over them again.
Dick and Todd, can you read the, so I'm not blocked, can I move this at all? Okay, how's that? Okay, and all right, you guys, I'll start with that. Ah, how's that? Okay, so, a true doctrine of the trinity has father, son, and Holy Spirit,
three persons, and one God. Now, modalism just says there's one person, and he sometimes looks like, looks like the father, and sometimes looks like the son. You think it's, and sometimes looks like the Holy Spirit, but it really is just one person, my marker died on me. Okay, and arianism would say that God the father is just, God equals the father, and there's a created being greater than any any other person, but a created being that's the son and a created being that's the Holy Spirit, but these were created. They didn't always exist, and that's the heresy of arianism, and that's what Jehovah's Witnesses would hold today, and that's why they aren't, you know, part of Orthodox Christianity. That's arianism. The fourth century bishop, yes, who taught the son was created, and we talked about, they had misunderstanding of these phrases that talk about the only begotten son, and some translations. I think it means that there was a father's son relationship forever between the father and the son, but that relationship never began, and it didn't mean created. So at the arianism was defeated at the Council of Nicaea 325 in Constantinople 381, and the Nicene Creed said, I believe in one God, the father almighty maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible, and one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, begotten of the father before all worlds, and doing that in the course of that debate they were saying, whatever this beginning means, it never began. It never started. It was eternal. Light of light, God, very God of very God, begotten not made, and they say, whatever begotten means, it doesn't mean created. Areas you're wrong. We won't accept this view, not made being of one substance with the father, and we talked then about this word, Homo Usiasi being, or one substance with the father by whom all things were made. This is the Nicene Creed, which has been said by many, many churches weekly, or occasionally since 325 AD. And I look back at that and I say, I'm just thankful, from the end of the New Testament, New Testament writings were finished about 90 or 100 AD. It took 225 years to, I mean, they started out thinking, okay, God is three persons, and there's one God, and each person is fully God. They kind of agreed with those things because they're there on the surface of the Bible. But then when they tried to put them together, they started to say, how could this be? How could this be? And you get modalism, and you get arianism, you get these suggested solutions that are wrong. And I'm glad that the church took that 225 years, and actually more than that, because from 325 to 381, the arian kept arguing. So they took 280 years to figure this out and kind of get it summarized in a way that they could say, okay, we're all going to agree with this, and you minority group that you don't agree, I'm sorry, we're not going to give you teaching positions or any leaderships in the church. You can't be pastors, you can't be elders, if you don't hold to Homo Usias. And that's how doctrinal disputes get settled, ultimately. The churches say, oh, there's this different teaching coming. And do we accept it? Do we not accept it? Finally, they get a statement where they get some words that the other side cannot agree to. And they could not agree, the arianists could not agree, same substance or one substance, Homo Usias with the father. They said, you see, the sun was created. And so they would say, similar, a similar being to grab it not the same. And so they were out. And that was good for the church. Being a one substance or Homo Usias with the father by whom all things were made. And the nice thing creed then affirmed, Homo Usias, same being or substance, one being or substance, not Homo Usias, which is similar being or substance. And I mentioned last week, there's just one letter difference in spelling, just the Greek letter E O to English, it'd be the letter I. And some people were saying, well, what are you doing? You're making a division in the church for one little tiny letter, just for any Oda. And yet, the difference in meaning was very substantial because the arians were saying similar to the father but created. And they were saying there was a time when the sun was not. When there was just God the father. And the church said, no, you've got to say same substance or same being as the father. And so we've got in this circle all three persons, but each one being fully God. Then, as I said in 3-281, the council of Kent sent, Nopal came along and added a paragraph on the Holy Spirit. Not only do I believe in God the Father Almighty and in Jesus Christ is only Son our Lord, but in the Holy Spirit the Lord and giver of life who proceeded from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified. So they said the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped and glorified with the Father and Son, meaning the Holy Spirit is also fully God and who spoke by the prophets, meaning the Holy Spirit was active in giving us the inspiration of Scripture. No, that's where we ended last week and that was kind of review. There were two other wrong views that came along that were different from arianism, but they're related. Subordinationism held that the Son was eternal and divine but not equal to the Father in being or attributes. So the arian's God defeated that said the Son was created. So then some other people said, well, what about this? Let's try this idea. One God but the Son and the Holy Spirit have a subordinate being. They're one God but less powerful, maybe, less, oh, I don't know, having less or being than the Father and they're deriving their being from the Father in some way. The Son was eternal and divine but not equal to the Father in being or attributes. What's the problem with this? You don't have the Son and the Holy Spirit being fully God then. There's some way in which they're inferior to the Father. I think the F or Father are really big. So that's subordinationism and again that's a wrong view because we want to affirm that each one is fully God and then there's another one and this is really very different but I'm just putting it in here and that is the idea of adoptionism and that is that God the Father always exists and Jesus was an ordinary human until he was about 30 and then God just said, oh I think I'll make you God as well as man and I'll make you my Son. I'll adopt you as my Son and I'll give you great powers. Well that's a very liberal view and you don't have Jesus being God from the moment he's conceived or you don't have him being God in his childhood and that's adoptionism. I won't go into that very much but again that's a wrong idea. Okay we've got one more thing to deal with before we leave the Nicene Creed and how they resolved all this and that is the Filioque clause. This sounds really interesting I know but there's a payoff to it so just be patient with me here a minute. Filioque means and from the Son in Latin the quay means and and this is a form of Son that means from the Son and from the Son clause. In the Nicene Creed when it said you believe in the Father I believe in the Father I believe in the Son and in the Holy Spirit the Lord and giver of life who proceeded from the Father and the Son. What this means is way back before the world was created before the world was created I'm going to put here New Testament Old Testament. Here's the life of Christ. Back here here's Genesis 1 with the creation. Back here before creation they were saying that the relationships among Father Son and Holy Spirit in the Trinity were like this. The Father had authority over the Son and I think that's true and that I'm going to give some verses for that later and that the Father was Father and the Son was Son and the Father predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son and the Father chose us Son before the foundation of the world. The creation the Father creates through the Son. So I think there's a difference in relationship though they're equal in being and they were saying well not only and then there's a relationship with the Father having authority over the Spirit and and the Nicene Creed and then a Constantinople in 381 they didn't say anything about the Son and the Spirit and gradually over time people were saying that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son and from the Son and so the question let me put that little arrow in a different color. The question was is there a leadership or authority or guiding role that the Son has with regard to the Holy Spirit before the world was created?
That's pretty obscure I know but I think it's right I'll explain why in a minute. This phrase and the Son Philly Oakway was endorsed by the Pope in 1017 though it had been talked about earlier and it caused a split between the Eastern Orthodox and the Western churches in 1054 AD because these Eastern churches which would be Greek Orthodox, Russian today Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, all those Orthodox churches they said to the Pope you don't have the right to do this but the Pope said yes I do and so a lot of it had to do with ecclesiastical power or authority and who was going to be right and who's going to be wrong and so these Eastern churches said to the Pope I'm sorry we're not going to follow your leadership anymore and so in 1054 AD there was a split and historians call that the great schism and even today now there's a Greek Orthodox church with a gold dome up here right on cactus isn't there just less than a mile from our building the Greek Orthodox church is object to the Pope because there was this division between East and West and the Eastern churches Eastern Orthodox churches went their own way and they have their own leadership and they don't relate to the Pope in Rome so long before the Reformation started in 1517 there was a split as the first split in the organizational unity of the church in history and that was in 1054 and it's never been repaired they'd never been reunited into one group anymore okay the interesting thing is it had to do with a really a really really obscure thing that is what was the relationship between the Sun and the Holy Spirit before creation as far as I know here's the number of Bible verses that explicitly address that zero so there was a split over an obscure point of doctrine about which the Bible says nothing directly you figured out I don't know why it was as I think okay now if I say I step back and I looked at the whole church whole course of church history in terms of God's providential direction I think actually it was the beginning of something that happened later in the Reformation in that there were a lot of different organizations form and God was protecting us from one worldwide church government which I think even I think Roman Catholics today would say when the Roman Catholic church had too much power before the Reformation there was a lot of corruption in it because it didn't have anybody challenging it effectively and so I don't think this was the worst thing happened and among Orthodox churches today you get you get some that are Bible believing and teach a genuine gospel but in a lot of those churches the Russian Orthodox Church the Greek Orthodox Church thinks honestly sadly I think there's a lot of just tradition and spiritual deadness but that's another story. The Western Church that kept on this form proceeds from the Sun the Western Church seems to be correct on this and the reason is that when you come over into history and how the Father's Son and Holy Spirit related to the world later let me get a little darker marker here Father, Son, Holy Spirit later in the history of the world the Father sent the Son into the world to die for our sins and then there are verses that say not only did the Father send the Holy Spirit but the Son also sent the Holy Spirit like at Pentecost so when the helper comes whom I will send you from the Father the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father he will bear witness about me so Jesus sends the Holy Spirit from the Father and then I tell you the truth it is to your advantage John 167 that I go away for if I do not go away the helper will not come if I go I will send him to you but then there are other verses that talk about the Father sending the Spirit so they both do this what I would say then is if in time the Son sends the Holy Spirit into the world that reflects an eternal difference in relationship so that there was a leadership or guidance or authority function that the Son had regarding the Holy Spirit eternally and so the phrase that was used was proceeds from the Father and the Son and from the Son I think that's right interestingly enough when I taught on the doctrine of the Trinity a few years ago and had a Greek Orthodox priest from this area in my class the edge of this is cardboard not and I had a Greek or Bible believing Greek Orthodox priest in my class he said to me afterward you know Wayne I think you're right on this I don't want I'm you know on this Philly Oakway thing so he was just to affirm what difference and led to the split of Greek Orthodox historically it's not a big deal in a way it's kind of obscure but when people look back on the history of the Church they said you know what by connecting the Son who is the Word of God sent into the world the Son with the Spirit the Western Church guaranteed that thinking and intellectual reasoning which is connected a lot to the Son being the revelation of God and spirituality the subjective process of all relating to God in our spirit thinking and spirituality were connected in the Western Church they weren't separated from each other in people's lives and so as opposed to in the Eastern Church there was a tendency to make spirituality something mystical and separate from our theological reasoning because the Spirit were not so directly connected I don't know if that really is the way it worked out but may have been okay so that's the Philly Oakway clause all right review of errors modalism God is one person denies the God is three persons Aryanism the Son is a created being denies that each person is fully God says the Son in the Holy Spirit are not truly God but they were created and then there's one other error we could think of and that would be tri-theism that is father, son and Holy Spirit are three separate gods but then there's not one God now animistic or native religions in some tribes and things might have polytheism and they might tend in this way that's not been a that's not been historically a heresy that anybody is held to in the history of the Church that I know of because the epic emphasis on being one God God being one God is so strong okay those are the errors now why is it important that we not hold that these errors but that we hold to this idea the father, son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but they are all the same being why is that important now I'm going to just read a paragraph from my book systematic theology because I summarize a number of things here why was the church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity why did they spend the whole part of the great part of the 4th century arguing about this is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son in the Holy Spirit yes it is for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith first the atonement is at stake if Jesus is merely a created being and not fully God then it's hard to see how he a creature could bear the full wrath of God against all our sins could any creature no matter how great really save us so Aryanism that says that the Son was created it tends toward having a son that isn't that isn't God and therefore can't really save us and that's why Jehovah's Witnesses don't have a doctrine of salvation by faith alone their salvation by works because they don't have a Savior who's God and who can save us so the atonement is at stake you give up the Trinity you give up the atonement who else gave up the Trinity historically the Unitarians in New England for instance and and they became just classically liberal not believing much of anything so when people give up the doctrine of the Trinity they tend to fall into error second justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son this is seen in the teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe in justification by faith alone if Jesus is not fully God we would doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely could we depend on any creature fully for our salvation see and I'm gonna I just have to draw Aryanism up here again because this is what's this is the challenge all the time saying that Jesus is not fully God son Holy Spirit created beings that's Aryanism but if you have that then then can you really trust this creature to save you completely if he's not fully God so that's at stake third avoiding idolatry is at stake because if Jesus is not truly God should we pray to him or worship him how can you sing praise to Jesus if he's a creature how could you worship him if he's a creature who but an infinite and how could you pray to him how could you pray to Jesus if he's not an infinite omniscient God who can hear and respond to all the prayers of God's people if Jesus is merely a creature no great it would be idolatry to worship him if the New Testament commands us to do so worthy is the lamb who was slain to receive blessing and honor and glory and power at the name of Jesus every knee should bow things in earth and things under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father and then let's see so atonement is at stake justification is at stake avoiding idolatry is at stake and then the independence of God is at stake because if you don't have personal relationships between the Father's Son and Holy Spirit eternally then God doesn't have God how can God have interpersonal relationships with himself he needs to create us then he needs us he depends on us for relationship and therefore he's not independent and then the personal nature of God is at stake if there's no trinity then you've got no interpersonal relationships eternally before creation and it's genuine it's hard to odd could be genuine personal without having those relationships and then there's the question of unity in the universe if there is not perfect plurality and unity in God then we have no basis for thinking there can be ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe and then there's diversity in the universe see I talked about this a little bit last time we can tolerate the fact and rejoice in the fact that we're different people with different colors of clothing and different hairstyles and and different things that we like to do and different music preferences and different food preferences and different gifts in the church and we minister to one another and we don't find ourselves threatened by that difference because we understand that out of very different people God makes unity and I think that's part of God reflecting having us reflect his nature in that he made us to be very different and then unified in him it's the basis ultimately for racial and ethnic unity in the church as well in that out of many diverse peoples and nations God makes one church and we can rejoice in that as opposed to the direction of the world that's just to segment and fragment and to just people like themselves all the time and church isn't that way so why is it that's because God is three persons who do different things and have different activities but they're one God so God can make us with as different persons and yet have one body in Christ and unity in the church so diversity and unity in the universe Christians in the doctrine of the Trinity have an explanation for that non-Christians say well they're all these different people and different things in the universe how can they all be united they just fragment a non-Christian view can't explain this so Herman Boving who is a Dutch theologian died in the 1920s Boving says that Athanasius understood Athanasius who defended the doctrinity through the whole 4th century he understood better than any of his contemporaries that Christianity stands or falls with the confession of the deity of Christ a deity of Christ and of the Trinity and then he says in the confession of the Trinity throbs the heart of the Christian religion every error results from or upon deeper deeper reflection maybe traced to a wrong view of this doctrine so I think the doctrine of the Trinity is very very important when we lose it we ultimately lose the Christian faith okay now we say okay we have three persons one God but then someone might come and say well okay Wayne okay I agree with you up to this point and I agree with the Nicene Creed but then what are the differences between father's son and Holy Spirit what are the distinctions between father's son and Holy Spirit well the persons of the Trinity have different primary functions in relating to the world sometimes people have called this the economy of the Trinity or the economic work of the Trinity not economic having to do with money but having to do with stewardship of activities first in creation look at this John 13 all things were made through him who is the him it's Jesus it's John one is talking about Jesus all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made so the picture is always this and we're going to find several verses this way is that the father creates through the son and here's the world and the son is the creative powerful word of God who brings the universe into existence but it's the father through the father initiates and creates through the son that does two things it gives the father primacy or leadership or an initiating role and the son being obedient or following role carrying out the will of the father and a number of this speak that way by him Christ all things were created in heaven on earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him that hints at the father working through the sun and for him and then what about the Holy Spirit well after the sun creates the earth was without form and void darkness was over the face of the earth and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters it looks like the Holy Spirit has this a role of being present to sustain and maintain and manifest God's presence in the world that the father planned and the son created so different activities and then in redemption or in our in our salvation God so loved the world that he gave his only son the father sends the son into the world the son does not send the father to die for our sins right the Holy Spirit doesn't send the son to die for our sins it's the father sends and the son comes so there's different role and then relations for for God sent forth his son and a lot of verses on this or Jesus says I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me so he's been sent from the father we've got this arrow again the father sending the son into the world different ways of relating to the world he brews ten again the son says behold I've come to do your will oh God or then then the father and the son send the Holy Spirit into the world so John 1426 the Holy Spirit whom the father will send in my name he will teach you all things there's a role of the Holy Spirit being present and teaching us and we had other verses about the son sending the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit gives us new birth unless one is born of water in the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven or you will receive power when the Holy Spirit is coming upon you acts one eight so the Holy Spirit has a different role he didn't come to die for our sins but he comes to empower us and to give us new life a new birth that's different from what the father does ends the son so different activities and then number two the persons of the Trinity eatly existed as father's son they never began being father's son in spirit and now you may say good I agree with that well you might but there are people when I've written on this there are people in the evangelical world who are challenging this today and who are writing against what I've written on this and I think I might say something about that a little bit next week but I think they're tampering with the doctrine of the Trinity that's been here for close to 2000 years well anyway why do I think that these relationships were there before creation because Ephesians 1-4 he chose us in him before the foundation of the world is that before creation yeah it is and and what who's choosing us father or son the father is choosing us he the father chose us in him which is Christ if you look in the context so before the come the world the father thinks ahead and says I'm going to choose Pammy in Jesus before the foundation of the world there's a there's a choosing but it's a father who initiates that or a John 1-5 we talked about this all things were made through him the father creating through the sun but that means before creation there was a plan and then the father said to the son now it's time to create and so there's an eternal existing there and there are other verses like this Romans 829 God the Father those whom he forenew he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son again the father initiates and it's conforming to the image of his son before the creation of the world he predestined us the father knew that the son was going to come and die for our sins and on that basis he decided to save us and he gave his son that means the father had to be the father before he could give the son so there's a difference in relationship the only eternal distinction that all between the members of the Trinity is in the way they relate to each other and to the creation and again I'm just giving you some technical terms here sorry about all these terms but here they are ontological equality ontological has to with being equal in being each one fully God but economic subordination and what I mean there is the son is subordinate to the authority of the father the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the authority of the father and the son so there's a difference in relationship what okay now that's good now Clyde what's the difference in that subordinationism subordinationism says they have a different a lesser being they're not full they're not as powerful not as eternal not as strong something like that so that's the question the difference between can we say they have different roles but not a lesser being okay and there's a lotplication for our lives today it has to do with the whole culture or a lot of the culture disliking authority if you're the boss you're in charge that's good but if you're under somebody else and you answer somebody else people think oh that's bad but the son has always been under the authority of the father eternally it doesn't make him any less god so parents and children children have to be subject to the authority their parents that doesn't mean the children are any less human or less persons it just means when you say it's time to go to bed it should go to bed okay and what can it robbing Susie right now who have kids about that age or do your homework it's time to do your homework so or in a business situation you can be subject to the authority of your boss and that doesn't mean the boss is a more important person or more human or more fully human or something like that it just means he has a different role and I'm I'm subject to the authority of Daryl Daryl who say who's president of the seminary now and Steve Tracy who's my academic dean and if they say teach a class on Wednesday at six o'clock you know what I do I teach a class on Wednesday night at six o'clock does that mean that they are more human than I am no I'm I'm a human being just like they are does that mean they're more valuable in God's plan than I know it just means we have different functions and so um so the the difference in role in the Trinity guarantees that you can have authority in human relationships that doesn't dehumanize people it isn't demeaning and it also the fact that the sun eternally was subject to the father means that we can be subject to authority and it not think of it as demeaning not think of it as dehumanizing not kind of rebel against it and we aren't we under some kind of authority whether the authority of the government or the authority of the elders of the church or something like that okay now here's the hard question well what is the relationship between the three persons and the being of God so we've kind of squirted around this issue but how can you have three persons and one being so I know I've got John right here in the front row John is one person and Kathy is another person and it's Kathy and Tom behind him that's three persons I can figure out three persons but there are three different beings John is a is a beat what do I mean by a being I mean something that exists John is something that exists he's a bee I can figure out three persons and three beings or I can figure out one being as one person John is just one person but I still can't get my head around this bee one being and three place so what is the relationship between the persons and the being how to do that it twisted when it came it's a specialty all right a God's being is not divided into three equal parts belonging to the three members of the Trinity this would be a mistake saying God is one third the father one third the son and one third the Holy Spirit the problem is here that the father is not holy fully God he's just one third God there's not the whole being of God so that doesn't work bee the personal distinctions are not something added on to God's real being like okay this center circle is what's really God and then the father is just a little bit of extra here and the son is just a little bit of extra and the Holy Spirit is a little bit of extra that doesn't work because then the father is not fully God and the son is not fully God the persons of the Trinity are not just three different ways of looking at the one being of God that's modalism again where it's just kind of an illusion it's not really father son and Holy Spirit just looks like that then you don't have three persons rather there are three distinct persons and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God and I thought and thought and thought about how to draw this and this is what I came up with and it helps a little bit but but it's not perfect all right if I say well what part of this circle is the father I have to say well it's this part and everything around the rest of the circle and what part is the son it's this part of the circle and everything around the rest of the circle as well and what part is the Holy Spirit well it's this part of the circle and then going around the circle it's also everything else so how much of how much of God is the Holy Spirit the whole being of God how much of God is the son the whole being of God how much of God is the father the whole being of God it's a mystery yeah it is honestly I don't think we know anything like this our experience of persons just isn't like that
because persons are separate beings so can we understand the doctrine of the Trinity although the doctrine of the Trinity contains mystery it is not correct to say that we can understand nothing about the Trinity we can understand quite a bit we can understand all the things we've talked about being one being each one being fully God there's been three persons eternally existing and they have different relationships among each other in fact the only thing we know only about the differences among the person the way they relate to each other no difference in their being okay somehow there's still difference in relationship but that's where we have to leave it so now so now you don't have the nice scene creed here but I thought we could I thought we could just say this together because Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox churches have all agreed with this since 325 and 381 AD have said well they even said this is scripture but they've said this is base this is the this is the this is the way we have to understand it in the guards against errors and and the except for that phrase end from the Sun for the Eastern Church so so why don't we read this together John yeah I agree with it except I think that this phrase only begotten I agree with how they understand it in that it's begotten not made so it doesn't mean created I think that they got off on a rabbit trail on the word begotten which is kind of confusing and I think it'd be it isn't the most helpful phrase to use and modern translations the Bible don't use only begotten anymore that's a translation question but I think that the substance of it is right yes let me let me just see yeah holy Catholic church that doesn't mean Roman Catholic that means just universal church yeah okay so I mean that and what at that time it was a worldwide church so that's what they meant and we do believe that there's a worldwide church even though we don't mean the Roman Catholic church by that
okay so we read this try if you find something you don't want to say just don't say it okay I believe in one God the Father Almighty maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible and in one Lord Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God begotten of the Father before all worlds light of light very God of very God begotten not made being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and was made man and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate he suffered and was buried and on the third day he rose again according to the scriptures and ascended into heaven and siteth on the right hand of God and he shall come again with glory urge both the quick and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end and in the Holy Spirit the Lord and giver of life who proceeded from the Father and the Son who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified who speak by the prophets and one holy Catholic and apostolic church I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come a man good okay application in about two minutes here and then we'll take some time for for conversation and questions I already touched on this because God is unity and diversity in his one being it gives the basis for unity and diversity in creation and that one doesn't have to threaten the other it gives the basis for God creating us male and female that we're different and yet and yet in marriage the two shall become one flesh there's unity and diversity in marriage I'll talk about this if I think next week a little bit first Corinthians 11 through I want you to understand the head of every man is Christ the head of a wife is her husband and the head of Christ is God I think that head means leader or authority and I think Paul is saying there's a parallel just as the father is the head or the leader of the son so in marriage the husband is the leader or the head of the wife and people say wait a minute how can they be equal in being or equal in dignity and I say well in the Trinity the Father and Son are both fully God and yet the Son is subject to the Father so in marriage the husband and wife can be fully human and fully valuable but the wife can be subject to the leadership or authority of the husband and so that's and that's the point at which people have been writing articles saying that I'm wrong on this and I may be getting into a little bit of that next week but they they go back and they try to mess up historic doctrine of the Trinity in order to argue with me and I don't think that's a good idea and the body is one this is in the church one has many members and all the members of the body though many are one body so it is with Christ so we're different but we're united and Jews and Gentiles reconciles both in one body through the cross killing the hostility so God brings unity out of diversity next week maybe I'm just I'm not quite sure I have to go to I have to go on a town the beginning of the week and I'm not yet sure and I have to work with Ben who's helping me get these trustees the slides together I might talk a little bit about the controversies over the doctrine of the Trinity that have come up in recent years including some criticism my view which is I think the historic view of the church but if I don't do that then I'll go on to start the doctrine of creation back and and God creating the world so that'll be and then we'll take a few weeks on that okay before we do this do you want now I've told myself stop at 9.15 so I can have 10 minutes of interaction with everybody so what's your name Dave Jesus when he said son let this cup pass from me yeah and then also he says not my will but your will yeah there seems to be diversity of opinion there huh yeah let this cup pass from me I just repeat that for the tape if I didn't get caught nevertheless not my will but yours be done is there diversity of opinion I think wow what you see in that is Jesus always wanted to do the will of the Father but then he says if it be possible let this cup pass from me if there's any other way to save human beings then be dying and bearing sin then let it happen but I think he also knows where there he that there wasn't going to be and and what we get when we get to the person of Christ I think we've got a human nature my nature in Christ oh I should say I should do this right here what happened when Christ became man what happened was just get some of the clutter out of here what happened was there was a human nature and the person
person of Christ then forever was God and man a newly created human nature he was truly man and truly God in one person that is absolutely remarkable I think the most astounding thing that ever happened in the whole history of the world that someone like us could be joined in one person with the divine nature of the sun and not with the Father in the whole spirit now sometimes what is happening is Jesus is sometimes operating on the basis human nature he says he's like he's hungry or he's tired or he learns things and so when he's praying to the Father diversity of opinion you see you're saying is there a diversity of opinion I'm just kind of think what's I think in regard to Jesus human nature he's saying is there a way to avoid this but but um what is he in his divine nature I think he knows I think that it can't be yeah well everything involved with it bearing sin I'm not sure what to say okay what is happening at that point between the his divine nature and the Father what hasn't happened yet so he's saying is there a way to do some else yeah there's a there's a council but doesn't he know that there isn't another way that's the question I'm not sure what to say okay I'm gonna have to leave and think about it somewhere Wayne when you're talking about the concept of economic subordination yep the scripture arises in my mind about the sins against the Father and Son being forgiven but sins against the Spirit of God yeah being unforgivable yeah and how would this would fit into this relationship between the three oh boy this is the day for questions I don't know how to answer um there's something about the Holy Spirit being the one who bears witness to the work of Christ and if people reject that there's no way and no other way to be saved and that's something about the sin against the Holy Spirit's rejecting the only way of salvation but I'm not sure I can say anything more about that right okay I'm trying to remember your name Kremlin I was gonna say okay okay Mike yeah this maybe related to again the economic subordination but again very similarly there's a passage when Christ says he doesn't know the time it was returning only the Father knows again so there seems to be a distinction in in the full knowledge or at least his
uh passing the authority of the knowledge to his Father as his Father sent him the first time the Father will send him the second time so he seems to and I don't know if that's also related to the other question in terms of whether there was a distinction in the knowledge and get somebody about their possibilities or good that's helpful and I have thought about that one a little bit I think when Jesus says he doesn't know the time of his return I think he's speaking in his human nature see we read that Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man if he and he he learned obedience through what he suffered that's in Luke 2 and it's in Hebrews 5 so what we have is that Jesus learned when he was a little child and his nature learned but did he always know all things yes if he's fully God so that ultimately and this didn't come to a 451 the Church of the Council of Calceton ended up with the idea that Jesus had two centers of consciousness a human and a divine and in his human consciousness he learned things as an ordinary human being but at any time he could call on his omniscience and know the thoughts of the Pharisees know the hearts of all men and have omniscience that is that's a tricky kind of detailed thing but but I I think it does have to do with his divine his human nature then okay because and the reason I'm not willing to go to the other route of saying well being subject to the authority of father means he didn't know everything even his divine nature then he's not omniscient and then he's not God so I just I'm not willing to give up any divine attributes for his divine nature okay what else in the garden I always thought you know I always ask myself when did Jesus actually take on the sins of the world and I always pictured when he's asking that question not my will but yours be done yeah before their will was always the same yeah and so at maybe at that point could have been that Christ took on the sin of the world and then the father could no longer look on that sin and there was a separation at that point because after that that was when Christ you know they found him they crucified him they were in control before he'd always been in control it was always able to get out of the situations so the question is where when he becomes sin I think that anyway on the cross I'm not sure if there was before that or not but it was leading up to that that he was praying for it but on the cross he took on the sin of the world or God counted him who knew no sin to be sin for us and Corinthians five I think that means that God counted against Jesus the guilt and the liability to punishment for sin but I do not think it means that Jesus himself thought or committed anything sinful so I don't think it means that he got anything incorrect at that time more felt anything incorrect just that it was counted against him I don't know if that helps or I just think when he was you know he was praying so earnestly that his sweat became like blood yeah you know yeah let me think about that and that come back next week Mike up here in the front okay yeah Gene just going back to the statement where you're reading from your book about herman Babnic that the doctrine of the Trinity is the heart of Christianity why is it that I guess so much of the Protestant world has given up any credal statements and are we missing something there should if the Trinity and the relationships and everything we've been talking about are so fundamental is it maybe appropriate try to work something more in I'm not sure this is another thing I'm just not sure what to say there Gene and different people have you know appreciate the value of creeds from time to time if they kind of affirm what we all believe and so I see some value they're not scripture but they're useful like yeah Wayne because you comment in the nice and creed on the comment about one baptism for remission of sins particularly how baptism is presented here at Scotto Bible Church yeah I cringe a little bit when I saw that too I don't think that it meant baptism does remove sins one baptism symbolizing the remission of sins or something like that would be how I how I would safely understand it maybe that's why people don't do creeds gene because there's stuff that in an ancient context wasn't any trouble and now it might be trouble yeah I sure don't think that baptism forgives sins no it symbolizes it yeah when your diagram that you drew up there last with the broken lines connecting yeah I think with what we know from the scripture it symbolizes it very well because when things are creed visible and visible we know and can understand in modern science that's the invisible our protons and our make of our atoms and neutrons those are invisible they make up the visible and it seems to me that most of those atoms are mostly space and it would be very easy for them to combine as Darryl mentioned here at one note I think about almost a year ago there is there's another dimension where Jesus walked into the room through the door etc and I think that's something that we're coming to that those molecules can just combine very easily and become one okay that's a scientific I can't comment on that don't have the knowledge to do that way but thanks for the scientific analogy I'm really looking at the time I wish I'd quit earlier and a little more question time but I think we should pray and when I pray when I pray then could you just be be helpful to vacate a little more quickly and if you want to talk kind of get out across the fence and talk out there that would be good or away from the fence so let's uh let's pray oh Lord our God we thank you Father's Son and Holy Spirit for the excellence of who you are greater than anything we've experienced genuinely persons we can pray to you Father as the one who understands our needs and we pray to you Lord Jesus as the one who has lived among us has been tempted as we are yet without sin and who has died for our sins and we pray to you and worship you Holy Spirit as the one who lives in us and empowers us and strengthens and guides us and we give you thanks and yet somehow oh Lord our God we know that in three persons you are one God and we and we can pray to you as one God as well and we cannot we cannot figure this out ultimately and so we bow before you and we worship you for the excellence of who you are far greater than we can understand in in great mystery and yet you've told us enough that we cannings that we believe firmly and truly help our faith and help us day by day we thank you for who you are for who you are and we worship and exalt you Father's Son and Holy Spirit God three and one a man see you next week